Why Care? #16: Marc McKenna-Coles - Active Allyship
“Active allyship should end up meaning that whatever an active ally was trying to achieve becomes normal. That it’s normal to see people from various ethnic backgrounds, from various sexual orientations, genders, disabilities, family situations, etc. in positions of authority or seniority in organisations.”
In Episode 16 of the ‘Why Care?’ podcast, I am joined by Marc McKenna-Coles, Diversity, Inclusion and Belonging (DIB) Strategy Lead at Spotify, to discuss employee networks, collecting diversity data, and active allyship.
Marc has a BA in Theatre and spent around a decade working with Disney in their stores and on Disney Cruises. He later moved into the banking sector and discovered employee networks, soon heading up RBS’s – now the NatWest Group – gender network. He has had several DEI roles in the financial sector before recently joining Spotify.
We talk about the necessity for DEI to exist and the importance of having conversations surrounding diversity characteristics. Marc shares that these conversations are important, not just for your own organisation or country, but for the whole world. He uses the example of Tom Daley’s speech about being a gay man at the Olympics after winning his gold medal, which will have reached people worldwide who don’t normally hear about LGBTQ+ people and will have started conversations where they’re needed the most.
We then discuss employee networks, why they exist, and their purpose. Marc shares he is a member of numerous employee networks where he doesn’t necessarily share the diversity characteristics that group represents, but does it to demonstrate how to show solidarity whilst being open to education. Marc then talks about intersectionality and how some companies are too eager to merge employee networks too soon to promote intersectionality, and instead it should be a measured and gradual blending process, especially in small organisations.
The conversation turns to being ‘future ready’ as an organisation: trying to predict societal trends in order to make sure your organisation is poised to keep up with society and address the modern-day concerns of its employees and consumers. Marc gives the example of making moves to represent non-binary and gender-nonconforming employees, as their numbers are predicted to rise in the future.
This episode is packed with tips and advice on how to be an active ally, which Marc explains is when people go beyond traditional ideas about allyship to be active rather than passive in their listening, talking and promotion of inclusion by uplifting and platforming marginalised people.
Links
For more from Marc, you can find him on LinkedIn at Marc McKenna-Coles
For more from Spotify visit their website at https://newsroom.spotify.com/company-info/
To hear Tom Daley’s Gold medal speech at the Tokyo 2020 Olympics that Marc mentioned, follow this YouTube link
To hear Why Care? episodes first, sign up to our newsletter here, and you can find more from us at Avenir via our LinkTree here.
Transcript
Marc McKenna 00:00
People do have a choice though to either join or participate in all the networks in which I do, I participate. So I'm part of the BLK network at our organisation. I'm part of other networks like ABLE, which is our Disability Network. And I don't necessarily personally resonate, but actually, it's about the education piece. It's about understanding, it's about listening, and it's about active allyship.
Nadia Nagamootoo 00:24
Hi, my name is Nadia Nagamootoo to business psychologist, coach, speaker, and founder of Avenir consulting, which creates organisational growth and success through inclusion and diversity. We've been discussing the benefits that diversity brings to a company's bottom line performance for decades with more and more evidence, but there are so many questions organisations still have about how to achieve it. How do you create a culture where people feel valued for their uniqueness and the qualities they bring? I believe it's crucial to the future success and sustainability of every organisation that they find the answer to this question to make sure that each employee is not only supported but also appreciated. With this podcast, I aim to get some of the key challenges to creating inclusive workplaces out in the open and start uncovering the solutions to embracing a culture that cares for everyone. I'm going to be having conversations with some of the most inspiring people in different countries and across industries who are pushing the boundaries on inclusion and diversity in the workplace, from topics such as parenting in the workplace, ethnicity, age, gender, mental health, and all things inclusion. I want to create a movement to change society by sharing life experiences and creating more empathy and connection. Why care? I believe that once we have organisations and societies that accept and value everyone for who they are, we become healthier, happier, and better in our roles both inside and outside work.
Hello, and welcome to episode 16 of my Why Care Podcast. My name is Nadia Nagamootoo, and I am your host, and what an episode this is. I have the privilege of speaking to Marc McKenna-Coles, the diversity, inclusion, and belonging strategy lead at Spotify. Spotify has propelled itself into people's everyday life with its music platform offering live streaming and accessibility to music and podcasts wherever people go. Marc has an impressive career history working for big brands such as Disney, NatWest group, and Lloyds London. Together we discussed the necessity for education, learning about different diverse characteristics and the challenges that each community faces. We also discussed the concept of organisational maturity in the DEI, offering his best practice for you, for those just starting out on their journey, and for organisations who are ready to embrace intersectionality and cross-pollination of affinity groups. Without a doubt, Marc's definition of active allyship is one of the key takeaways. How can we create active allyship and what is everyone's role? Marc has fantastic examples of people role-modelling inclusive behaviours and some great advice for organisations wanting to do more in the DEI space. Enjoy. Marc, a huge welcome to the Why care podcast show, I'm so happy to have you on the show. Thank you so much for joining.
Marc McKenna 03:11
Thank you for inviting me along. It's a real pleasure and a real privilege.
Nadia Nagamootoo 03:14
I have to say I very much enjoy it, I know people can't see this but you've got an incredible background where you're sitting there with some brilliant rainbow Disney characters I can see.
Marc McKenna 03:24
Yeah, so my office, in my home is my Disney sanctuary, so I kind of got a whole essence of that. I kind of lock everything in here and it's just kind of nice to have everything around. So yeah, it's good.
Nadia Nagamootoo 03:36
Well, I would love to talk to you about your career, and all things diversity, inclusion, and belonging. So maybe just as a starter, you could just tell us a little bit about your career path and your journey, how did you end up working in this space?
Marc McKenna 03:50
Wow. So, my career path has been quite all over the place really but actually, it's been very exciting. So, I have a theatre degree [ Nadia: really, oh my goodness], which I studied at Middlesex University many, many, many years ago.
Nadia Nagamootoo 04:05
What sort of theatre?
Marc McKenna 04:07
Basically, I was acting and also doing backstage work as well. So, it was a mix of both technical, set design, and various other things. It was a really good course because it gave you an aspect of it all rather than just the acting element. So that was really, really good. I did that in Golders Green, Middlesex University used to own a small location at the top of the hill in Golders Green, so we did our degree there, but it was very exciting. I worked for Disney for 10 years. That's probably why my office is in its essence the Disney way, like the Disney Stores here in the UK and in the US. I also worked for Disney Cruise Line as well and then I moved into banking. And then I discovered the employee networks, and that kind of triggered something that was always there about the work around diversity, inclusion, and belonging. I actually managed to land a role for a short period of time to manage the gender network for RBS NatWest. At the time, it was actually a role, it wasn't a volunteer role, it was an actual paid role in the job.
Nadia Nagamootoo 06:09
That's quite unusual, isn't it?
Marc McKenna 05:10
It is because the gender network was so vast globally, they wanted to make sure that they had someone that could help oversee all the activity, what was going on, etc. So, the sponsor was very keen to bring that in, and then unfortunately, the sponsor left the organisation, which meant that role kind of had to change. I was then given an opportunity to land a role within the newly developed diversity and inclusion team at RBS. So, my boss that I worked with in that team, basically took a stab, I had no real experience, I've done the work in the gender network, I had a passion for it, all of those sorts of things and I'm extremely grateful. And I did nearly four years in that team, I then went to Lloyds of London, where I was out for two and a half years, looking at diversity and inclusion, not only for Lloyds of London, but across the insurance market, and leading on their diversity and inclusion festival. And then six months ago, I joined Spotify, I wanted to start thinking about different industries moving away from financial services and this opportunity sort of came to me rather than me going to them, which was great. And it's so different but really good.
Nadia Nagamootoo 06:24
So, you wanted something different in terms of industry. What really attracted you to it? Was there something about the brand Spotify? Was it something about the industry that you just wanted to get to understand, this is a very niche and new industry, isn't it?
Marc McKenna 06:38
Yeah, so Spotify sort of class itself in the sort of audio industry. So, you'll never find that on a loan application by the way, so if you're looking for what industry you work in, audio is not there. Any person that does loan applications should make sure they add that in as a new industry. What attracted me, I think it was twofold, but it has a huge reach and influence on a consumer, and also, it has a very diverse population base within its own organisation. For me, it was about okay, what can I do? What lens? What influence can I bring to all of that? I enjoy the customer-facing element of it.
My role is not necessarily that much but I do have an influence on that, and the business areas I work with support the consumer. So, you know, any changes that I'm trying to make internally will always have a knock-on effect on the consumer in the future. So, I think very much, it's got that sort of encapsulation of many elements that I kind of enjoy working on, and the fact that yes, it is a very new brand. It's 15 years old, and the people that I work with, my boss, the team, the wider sort of populations that I have communication contact with on a regular basis are all fantastic and they all want to do great stuff and they also want to keep learning. Part of my role is not only about influencing change, but it's also around education and it always has been, so it gives me the opportunity to help and support that education stream as well.
Nadia Nagamootoo 08:13
What specifically do you feel about your role, and how does it involve education?
Marc McKenna 08:18
So, giving people insight into global inequalities, this is no one's fault. but you know, some countries don't necessarily have a global view on certain inequalities. Let's take the LGBTQI-plus community, some countries like the UK, it's not the best, but we've got it good here. But then the language primarily on social media of why don't we have straight pride, you know, we always have gay pride, you know, in the UK, with the gay community, or the lesbian or the trans community have all got it good. Well, they haven't. Some of the communities even in the UK haven't got it good, for instance, the trans community, the non-binary, gender non-conforming, and gender fluid are blasted constantly in the press or on social media. But then we go wider into the global aspect, there are still 10 or 11 countries where the death penalty is still in place for homosexuality. Pride can look like a party on a street but actually, there is real true meaning in there about we need to claim our space, we need to show that we are human beings that are able to achieve things.
Tom Daley, for example, who recently won gold alongside his diving partner and also then bronze in the individual, his speech around winning gold, speaking about the fact of being a gay man, and for years, he's felt that he wasn't able to achieve because maybe society wouldn't be able to accept. There was criticism of that speech, you know, why does he have to talk about being gay, and someone eloquently put on social media as I've just described, there are 10-11 countries where there's still the death penalty and some of those countries participate in the Olympics, so to voice that is really important. And race as well, race can be a very different picture across the world, we talk about the Black Lives Matter movement, which is absolutely so important but that can mean very different things in different parts of the world. It's not the same as it would be in both the US and the UK, it can be something very different in parts of Europe. Also, if we move into sort of Asia, it can mean something very, very different, not that inequalities don't exist, it's just a very different conversation to have.
Nadia Nagamootoo 10:31
Yeah, I've been doing a lot of reading around this subject, around how racism plays out in countries like in Asia and the countries where people might think from a visible perspective, there isn't as much diversity, and yet there is, and there's a number of different ethnicities and races within each Asian country, and there's a hierarchy between them. I find it fascinating, I’m still learning and so education is so important for me, but something else resonated with me around what you were saying, as I was talking to a good friend of mine, her organization's doing a lot of work in this space at the moment in diversity, inclusion, and belonging. And he said, I don't understand why we have to have groups of people, these networks that have now popped up in my organisation, that he was referring to was employee resource groups, there isn't one for straight white men. So why are we boxing people? Can't we just treat people with respect and why do we have to have different groups of people and categorise them in that way? So, what's your response to that?
Marc McKenna 11:34
So, I kind of partly get the query behind that. However, networks have a huge part to play in an organisation. And I refer back to the education piece that I spoke about earlier on, they have a part to play around sort of educating, supporting, being visible, and being a voice from the grassroots, all the way up, as well. But yes, sometimes by having separate categories, it does feel like you're boxing people up. People do have a choice though, to either join or participate in all the networks, which I do, I participate. So, I'm part of the BLK network at our organisation, I'm part of other networks like ABLE, which is our Disability Network. I don't necessarily personally resonate but actually, it's about the education piece, it's about understanding, it's about listening and it's about that active ally-ship. It also depends on the maturity of your organisation, so for some organisations that are in their sort of starting block, having those sort of separate groups helps kind of bring to life those topics and brings to life those particular demographics of individuals. What some organisations have started to do, and they've gone down that maturity line is that they've started to think, you know what, we are more mature, we are having those conversations, but what we now need to do is to start thinking more about that intersectionality.
Now, intersectionality is a word that's been bandied around for quite some time, I get very nervous about the word. I love it, but I get nervous, and I get nervous because some organisations try and use it, and they are not ready to use it. They haven't yet established how they are going to support that broader conversation, they kind of just go right, we're just going to write intersectionality. And I think you've got to have a sense of maturity when you start talking about it because when you start talking about that, people have multiple layers about themselves. And you start saying, well, the white straight individual for example, is not necessarily just that, they are made up of various other things, they might have parental responsibilities, they might have a disability of some sort, or a family member, etcetera. So that creates a more layered approach.
I think organisations need to be ready to have those conversations and they need to prepare themselves. I know that some organisations have disbanded separate networks because they're already on that maturity level and they've kind of created this more intersectional network to help broaden that conversation across the wider scope but I think, especially if you're in the infancy of your journey, or you're still working through your journey, I think having some of that separation does have its benefits. What you need to do is to start slowly moving across. So, one of the things I did in my previous organisation was that we had some great networks that did some great stuff. When I first started, they never really spoke to each other, so one of my key things was that every six weeks, the leader of each of those networks would all come together with me and we would all talk about what was going on in their networks. And within the second meeting, everyone was going, Oh, I've got the same issue as you, or actually, we could do this. What you start doing is that you start bringing together some of those things working together as a network, and you start developing in the early stages a form of intersectionality without absolutely banding it as intersectionality.
Nadia Nagamootoo 15:05
And so then, what happens with that conversation? I'm really interested in that because for me this concept of maturity through diversity, inclusion, and belonging in an organisations journey is really fascinating. So, what we're saying is that for those who are starting out with that separation and creating these networks where women can come together, or people of an LGBTQ-plus community can come together is important. Later on, I suppose you only know a point where that's working, and it's working well, and people are talking in those networks. Then what I'm hearing is those networks start coming together, maybe just from the chair-people, or those people lead them coming together and sharing, how do you create the intersectionality conversation?
Marc McKenna 15:48
I think it's the bringing together of those networks and the networks starting to cross-pollinate some of the work that they do, thinking about how is the makeup of your organisation looking like? Are you getting a viewpoint of good representation? Where organisations still lack data, do you still need to build that representation? So, I think people's maturity level about intersectionality can also depend on what data you have on those people to make an informed choice to see whether you've actually got a good mix of people to start bringing together those sorts of conversations as well. And we know many organisations out there still suffer from data. It could be through history, it could be through legal aspects in certain countries, societal things that keep coming in as well, which that's one of the things that is one of my bugbears. I really get annoyed when people say to me, oh, but we can't collect data in that country and I'm like, why? What has the legal team said? And they said, Oh no, society has said that we can't. And I'm like, no, let's move on from that what society says.
What the law says is two different things, we can change the mindset of society, as long as we communicate it, we talk about it in a more positive way and we are secure about the data we handle. Yes, I guess there are laws in certain countries but we need to respect those laws and follow those laws. Actually, if the law does say to us, we can collect that data, let's go and do it, data is important. It's not the only thing because actually, you should be respectful of everyone, irrespective of data but that will give you a bigger insight and it may start helping you develop how you start, cross-pollinating, creating that intersectional sort of elements of conversation as well.
Nadia Nagamootoo 17:40
That's fascinating. I do actually have a client at the moment who's struggling with the data aspect and saying, we can't force people, right, we can ask the question and just look at who's answered. Basically, one of the things that I'm doing is wanting to understand what their demographics look like. What do you have in terms of gender split? What do you have in terms of ethnicity? What do you have so that we can understand the diversity of their organisation? And it turns out that they don't understand the diversity of their organisation because that data was never collected and people didn't volunteer it. And so, there's something there around trust isn't there, trust about what the organisation is going to do with that data and information.
Marc McKenna 18:16
Absolutely. And one of the things that I learned when I was at RBS was a great thing, we've started to improve how we asked people's information primarily in the UK because that was our biggest employee base at the time. But we've started to expand that and what we started to do was to understand some of the engagement through how people disclose. So, for example, we saw a low disclosure in the disability categories and we knew through various other conversations and the network that there was a high proportion of people with disabilities. So, what we started to do is to develop the conversation around disability and we started to develop how we should talk about that and the true essence of disability and all the different support mechanisms that the organisation wants to try and do to help people with disabilities. What started to happen, people started to disclose their disability a lot more because they felt that if they could do that, it would help the organisation even further to move the dial in the space around disability, and that was the same around ethnicity, that was the same around sexual orientation, and even parents and caring responsibilities as well. So sometimes you have to kind of be showing that you want to do stuff, not just send a message out and say, we want your information. You've got to prove that you're doing it for the right reasons as well.
Nadia Nagamootoo 19:44
I really like that. That's a brilliant example of transparency. This is just me looking at Spotify's website and seeing all their diversity, inclusion, and belonging statistics, it's very transparent in where the organization's at with regards to having sort of the ratio, gender, and ethnicity. I love that. I think that yeah, why not? That seems to me important for Spotify as an organisational brand, to be that transparent but what do you think the benefits are really of that transparency for organization?
Marc McKenna 20:17
We are a customer-facing organisation, and so we also want to be reflective of our consumers. If we talk about our gender data, and if you go to our life@spotify.com web pages, you can see the current data that we hold around gender, and our gender representation is good, as with all organisations, we want to be better. So, we don't just only ask females and males on our system, we also ask about non-binary as well, we're trying to be as inclusive, and we have some disclosure around that. And that's all on the website as well and you can see that there's a slight mention of that there.
Nadia Nagamootoo 20:53
It's the first time I've seen a percentage in that rather than it being binary, male and female in terms of statistics, the first time I've seen the category non-binary displayed in that way.
Marc McKenna 21:03
Yeah, but that comes with time as well, because evidently, and some work that I did when I was at Lloyds of London, I worked with a fantastic organisation called Global butterflies and we pulled together an amazing guide which is around trans-non-binary inclusion. There are some great stats in there that talk about how in the next decade or so, around 20% of the younger generation will not identify with a binary gender. So, we as organisations, be it the organisation I currently work for, or organisations I've worked for before, organisations that are out there, need to think about that. Now we know that there are some unfortunate pitstops, be it the government, or HMRC. For example, the things I get all the time from organisations, when they hear organisations like myself, and one that I worked with previously, well, it's great that you're asking this non-binary option but what about HMRC? How are you declaring that information? Well, there are always ways around that.
For example, when I worked at Lloyds of London, if someone identified as non-binary on our HR system, we had a message that came up that said, due to some third parties, we do require a binary gender, so please contact HR and have that discussion. You know, we are not disrespecting your gender identity on our systems but unfortunately, there are other organisations that are not disrespectful that just haven't moved with the times yet. So, we have to understand from their point of view, what binary gender we need to just put down for you for those particular purposes. Now, as soon as HMRC, pension providers start changing with the times, then absolutely, and there's an amazing person out there, who is currently taking the government to court around having a third gender option on passports, which many other countries are starting to develop, we're starting to see that the US has now just recently announced that they are going to start implementing that on ID as well. And actually, I watch the UK court case live on the live stream, and it was very interesting just to listen to some of the sorts of arguments for and against it.
I have to be very measured but sometimes I don't always agree with the against arguments. I'm very much for it, people need to respect gender identity, which has been around for centuries, outside of the binary I'm talking about here, it's been around for centuries, you can find books, you can find writings that talk about trans and non-binary people from centuries ago. But it was never really spoken about because it tended to be from the classes that were more educated because they have the ability to talk about those sorts of things, it's been around, it's not a new thing and we've got to remember that. So, all of those different aspects as well are really, really important to sort of move the dial. So, I think organisations do need to think about, if they want to attract that new talent, they've got to be future-ready. If they want to attract existing talent that may be very comfortable in their current organisation, but do want to move on for many different reasons, they may identify in a particular way, be it through gender, race, disability, or whatever, they want to make sure that they're going to a new organisation that is respectful of that.
Nadia Nagamootoo 24:23
Absolutely. And I love that because actually, the organisation has the power, the organisation can ask the question, it doesn't mean that you have to wait for the whole of society, the government, and everyone to be ready for that question and for the answer. As an organisation, each organisation has the power to ask that question and then do something with the response in order to help tick the necessary box in whatever necessary processing system outside of their control. That makes complete sense to me. You said in terms of ERGs, you belong to pretty much all of them, even though actually you may not identify with being disabled, we have had a very short conversation around ally ship before.
And I'm interested just to go in a little bit deeper because to me, I see different forms of allyship on LinkedIn, for example, there are lots of likings of posts with respect to diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging articles or comments. So that is a form of allyship, right? If you're supporting someone else in their view that sort of seems to be the lower end of the scale in terms of demonstrating allyship, and it can manifest in many different forms. What's your view when people say that they're allies? What does that mean? What's your definition of it?
Marc McKenna 25:40
I think there are two definitions of allies. So there are allies, and then there's active allyship, the sort of general broad sense of allies are very much people that want to maybe be educated, they want to understand a bit more about a particular community or topic, they might sort of show up at an event, they might do something, but what they won't do is that they won't put their head above the parapet. They'll just stay below, let's say the waterline, they'll just understand or start educating themselves about that. And I think they'll put something on their desk that shows that they are respectful in a particular way or something like that, then we move into that active allyship level. And that's those people that speak up, they are people that want to take action and support that particular community. Now, on my profiles on social media, I talked about being a trans ally. And I think as a gay man, I feel that it's right that I should be part of it, I have a passion for it. I have a lot of friends who are part of the trans community but I also think that I've wanted to learn, I had some insecurities around gender identity in the past, and I didn't understand why someone identified in a particular way, or why that changed things for them.
I now understand a huge amount more, I don't think I understand it all because I'm not a trans person myself, I'm a cisgender male, but I don't ever speak on behalf of the trans community. So, I'm not going to bleat on about that. What I will do is I'll speak alongside the trans community. So when I see inequalities, I want to speak alongside and be a great example of a brilliant active ally. There's a gentleman out there called Steven Wardlaw, and he is the chairman of Emerald life, which is an insurance company, He's a great guy, I met him several times, fantastic.
And there's a huge amount of bashing in the press at the moment around Stonewall, around the trans community, around LGBTQ community as well and he is sometimes on a daily basis, sometimes on a weekly basis going and he's finding these articles primarily from some of the broadsheets and he's going through the articles and questioning everything that's being said, and publishing his questions that have been said. And it's brilliant because what it's doing, it's highlighting that there are inaccuracies in what the press and the media are talking about and he's highlighting that and what that's doing. He's standing alongside that community and saying, this is what I'm seeing, this is wrong, things need to change, and the press need to realise that. I see that from people when we think about Black Lives Matter. We see a lot of people that identify as non-Black or from other communities that were really sort of trying to educate themselves to understand those inequalities because we all need to understand that inequalities exist. What we want to also understand is that inequalities can disappear if we do the right thing.
Nadia Nagamootoo 28:52
How critical is active allyship to combating these inequalities?
Marc McKenna 28:59
It’s huge. I think it's massive, I think it's a way of people really bringing strong voices to the front of everything. We think about it in the disability space, for example, the disability space is a massive complex spectrum. And we've got Caroline Casey out there who has built the valuable 500, and this is very much around CEOs really putting themselves forward about that. Now, Caroline Casey is very open about her own disabilities but very much so what she has created is this community of active allies that really wants to move the dial in disability space, who hugely want to move the dial in the disability space, because it's something that people don't speak about, but we know that over 70% of individuals will acquire some form of disability during their working life. So actually, why is it something that's right on the back burner and actually bringing people in to really talk about it? It’s that active allyship around the spectrum of disability, we know that in the UK under the Equality Act, disability is protected and there are certain elements of that but that can look very different in other countries as well. So, people need also need to educate on what the meaning of disability means in various locations, but actually, it's about the support mechanism. I heard a great podcast the other week, there was a guy who unfortunately through a trampoline in an accident, and ended up being in a wheelchair.
Now, at the start of his time in the wheelchair, he felt that something that was just awful in his life, but actually, it's part of who he is now and it's the surroundings around him that create the disability. So, if he can't get his wheelchair into a location, that's not his disability stopping him, that's the surroundings stopping him. And it's important for active allyship to recognize things like the accessibility to buildings, the surroundings, and the height of certain things. And a good example with a bank that developed some iPad tables when iPads were becoming a big thing for banks to have in their banking hall, they develop this iPad table, and they wanted it so that kids couldn't get to the iPad, understandably. So, they made it to a height that adults could reach. Hmm, funny that, but you could wield a wheelchair underneath it. So actually, the thought process behind it was, we're trying to address it for one thing, but actually, are we thinking about the bigger picture? That has since changed. Banks are really good in that space around the disability stance that they have different levels that people can go to. And so, all of those different things are when people kind of put what I call that inclusion speed bumping when they are thinking about those things. And it's those active allies that really create that conversation as well.
Nadia Nagamootoo 31:52
I love that. And it just reminded me of going out to a zoo over the weekend, and we were in the toilets there with my daughter, and the sink was that little bit lower and she just walked up to it and used it, as opposed to me having to sort of help her. And usually, I'll have to sort of get the soap in my hand and put it in her hand because she can't reach the soap dispenser but there was one at her level. And so, I know that we're talking disability here, obviously but it was so empowering for her to have that independence, it was so important. And so, I see the world through her eyes and think of all the limitations that she has. And of course, she's a child, it's very different to someone in a wheelchair or having a disability. But in essence, the world is limited for her in a similar way from a height perspective. My friend again, who I was speaking to, just says I don't get it. Can't we just treat people with respect? Why do we have to talk about allyship? What is the word allyship? If everyone just treats each other let’s get on with it, then why can't we just do that? I think you've just spoken there in terms of the answer around the world isn't designed that way, we can't just crack on and get on with it. It isn't just about people's behaviour it's about how the world is designed.
Marc McKenna 33:07
Absolutely. I think that's also the differentiation between equality and equity. The active allyship element brings in that equity. So, a great pictorial viewpoint of equality and equity is, I think there are three people trying to watch a baseball match, they're all of the different heights, and they're all looking over the fence. And equality will give them the same size box to stand on but obviously the taller person well, who could have seen anyway can see, the middle-sized person can now see and then the shorter person still can't see. But actually, what you do is you give them different size boxes in relation to what requirements they need, then that gives them that equality. So, equity does require that push up and I think active allyship is a key voice to helping out and supporting equity as well.
Nadia Nagamootoo 33:56
I feel anyway that we see more active allyship in certain areas and in terms of diverse characteristics compared to others. So, gender, for example, when it comes to women, it's a conversation we've had for a fairly long time now. And there seems to be more active allyship, there's more discussion around male allies and I don't see it as much in other communities. So, do you feel that we need to be focusing on other communities or different communities more than we actually are at the moment?
Marc McKenna 34:25
Yeah, I do. And I think we then go back to the conversation we had much earlier on around the intersectionality, where people do have the ability to intersect their allyship and actually think about the fact that if they are an ally in the gender space or an active ally in the gender space. Let's think about so if I look at senior women, especially in financial services, and there are some amazing senior women in financial services. I've worked with some of them as well, and they are fantastic but if we look at the ethnicity split of those and senior women in financial services, it's very much like what the male population looks like. So, I think what people need to recognise is that they can be an ally in the gender space to improve female representation at all levels, but also at senior level, recognising there may be those additional struggles for people, people of colour, black, Asian, other minority ethnics as well. Also, thinking about, okay, what is that additional thing that I can do to really take my gender allyship and move it into a new space? Start thinking about those elements as well you know, the chairperson of John Lewis is a Black woman, great, and it's highly celebrated, and quite rightly so.
And they are making some huge decisions at the moment for that organisation, I would never want to be in that person's shoes. And I get that, and it's great to celebrate but actually, sometimes you also want to start making it as normal as possible. Active ally ship should end up meaning that whatever an active ally was trying to achieve becomes normal. It's normal to see people from various ethnic backgrounds, from various sexual orientations, genders, disabilities, family situations, etc, in positions of authority or seniority within an organisation. So, I think there are various things and that's kind of a tricky scenario. And that's why diversity and inclusion, yes, it's been around for quite some time, the conversation has been around for many years and it will continue to be around for many, many, many years. By the time I'm retired, that conversation will still continue. So, I kind of see that I have got a role somewhere to play but I think we are slowly eating away. You know, if we think about gender pay gap reporting in the UK, there have been some real significant changes in certain industries when it comes to how that's changing. And we've got to remember gender pay gap reporting is different from equal pay, it is about levels. So, we are starting to see level changes for female representation in organisations and industries but there is still more to do, but there is still much more to do.
Nadia Nagamootoo 37:16
That vision of just it being completely normal to see someone from a minority or underrepresented group in a position of power and not celebrate it would be incredible. I kind of feel we're a long way off from that because those moments whenever they come, they're just so highly celebrated in the limelight on them, I'd love to see the day where it's just like normal to see.
Marc McKenna 37:27
Celebrate the job that they do, not necessarily the person that they are.
Nadia Nagamootoo 37:31
I love that. So, we're just coming to the end, I love just to hear what is the next thing that is on diversity, inclusion, and belonging, sort of on the horizon, what you think it's important for organisations to be focusing on.
Marc McKenna 37:46
So, I think here in the UK, finally, if the government kind of takes that path forward, ethnicity pay gap reporting will be coming down the line. And I think that's going to be a huge thing, to really sort of emphasise on that now, we know that organisations are already starting to report on it. Also, organisations need a fairly good disclosure rate before they can start reporting on it because it just doesn't come across very well. So, I think there's going to be a huge lens on that, and really trying to understand exactly the inequalities in and amongst people from various different ethnic backgrounds. And I think it's important to realise that there are inequalities inside that group as well. So, we've got to recognise it's not just, don't band everyone together, recognise the differences that can come across within those communities as well. So, I think that's an important piece, I think very much so that because it's been on the sort of LGBT plus community, I think gender identity and that sort of conversation is still going on.
There's still a lot more to happen but I do think organisations are trying to move the dial there. Disability is very much probably another one that is something that organisations have kind of shied away from a little bit, of not quite been there, but I think really is becoming part of how we better entice great talent into organisations. If I think in the tech space, we know that there's going to be a high proportion of people with neuro-diverse issues in the workplace. We know that the last 18 months or so or even longer, have developed conversations around mental health. All these different facets which sit in the disability space are something that is going to be a real key part of our upcoming talent that's going to come from schools and colleges where they currently sit at the moment, but also talent that's already out there but want to look for various different things. If organisations can prove that they're really making real indents in those sorts of topics, then actually they are going to be an organisation that people will want to work for and do the best that they possibly can.
Nadia Nagamootoo 39:58
Wow, well I have to say, Spotify is incredibly lucky and fortunate to have you leading the way in diversity, inclusion, and belonging. Marc, it's been an absolute pleasure to hear all of your insights and advice and the journey you've been on. That's incredible. So, thank you so much. If people wanted to get a hold of you, are you active on social media?
Marc McKenna 40:19
I'm very much on LinkedIn and I'm on Twitter. People can probably find me on there as well.
Nadia Nagamootoo 40:24
Excellent, excellent. Well, the link to everything that Marc and I spoke about today is going to be available in the usual place on the show notes page of Avenirconsultingservices.com and the podcasts. So, Marc, thank you so much. It's been amazing to talk to you. I look forward to catching up with you again soon.
Marc McKenna 40:43
Thank you.
Nadia Nagamootoo 40:44
That concludes episode 16 of the Why Care Podcast. I love Marc's concept of speaking alongside people with different diverse characteristics to our own. Active allyship, as Marc says is key to creating equity. I'm really looking forward to hearing more from Marc and the great work that he's doing at Spotify. Do let Marc and I know what you thought of today's show. You can find me on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram with the handle Nadia Nagamootoo and Avenir consulting services. As always, I really appreciate your support of this podcast or leaving a review on whatever platform you're listening to and spreading the word by sharing it with your friends and family. Huge thanks to Mauro Kenji for editing this podcast and Jon Rice for supporting with the show notes and getting it out there on social media.