Why Care? #17: Rukasana Bhaijee - Reclaiming Identity
“When [Muslim] women want to enter the workplace in places like the UK for instance, they may end up facing a triple penalty. The penalty of being a Muslim, the penalty of being potentially from a different racial background and also being a woman. It’s almost instead of facing the glass ceiling, you’re facing a triple glazed or a concrete ceiling which is almost impossible to penetrate.”
In Episode 17 of the ‘Why Care?’ podcast, I am joined by Rukasana Bhaijee, Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Lead, EMEA Technology at Google, to discuss being a Muslim Woman in various industries, her identity as a British Muslim and as a hijab-wearer, and her views on the unique DEI challenges of the tech industry.
Rukasana’s professional journey is certainly one of the most unique I’ve ever heard. Following the completion of her A Levels, Rukasana started her career in the world of banking, first at Bank of England and then JP Morgan. After some time in this industry she took a decade out to be a mum, during which she reskilled as a complementary therapist with a focus on massage and worked part-time with the east London Asian community to promote ideas of wellness.
Following her therapy roles she “fell into” the world of HR at Queen Mary’s University and discovered DEI. She then spent some time at Ernst & Young in the professional services industry, before moving to tech giant Google. In 2019 she was recognised by the European Diversity Awards as an Inspirational DEI Leader.
We discuss our experiences of being first-generation UK-born children of parents who emigrated to the UK and how being caught between two cultures shaped our childhood experiences. We reflect on the lack of representation in the media for us as children, and when we first started to challenge the rather rigid gender roles of our parents’ cultures.
Post 9/11, Rukasana noted a visible change in the narrative about what it means to be Muslim in the UK, and how these conversations were not led by, or inclusive of, Muslims themselves. In response to this, Rukasana decided to “reclaim” her Muslimness and become more visibly Muslim by wearing a hijab. We then discuss her experiences of discrimination and otherness resulting from being a Muslim woman and the differences of before and after adopting the hijab, particularly when applying for jobs. Rukasana then gives tips on managing and overcoming systemic prejudices as an underrepresented person.
Rukasana shares Google’s unique DEI challenges and the impressive path they’ve taken to tackle them and develop an inclusive culture. We close the episode discussing the greater need for inclusive leadership across all industries, particularly after the Covid-19 pandemic sent many organisations into “survival mode” which caused the focus on DEI strategies to slip.
Links:
For more from Rukasana you can find her on LinkedIn at Rukasana Bhaijee, and on Twitter at @RukasanaBhaijee
The Google Diversity Annual Report Rukasana mentions can be found here: https://diversity.google/annual-report/
The Harvard Business Review Article from Google about Product Inclusion Design Practices can be found here: https://hbr.org/sponsored/2021/03/the-business-case-for-product-inclusion-design-practices
The Google Retention team blog can be found here: https://blog.google/inside-google/googlers/rachel-spivey-retention-progression/
November is Islamophobia Awareness Month in the UK and you can find more about that here: www.islamophobia-awareness.org/
Rukasana’s LinkedIn article providing guidance for organisations to foster cultures of belonging for Muslim Women can be found here: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/empoweredemployment-unlocking-workplace-muslim-women-bhaijee/
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Transcript
Rukasana Bhaijee 00:00
I think post 9/11 what happened was, I realized that there was all of a sudden a lot of narrative in the media, a lot of narrative in popular culture starting to happen without the voices of the people involved. So people were creating perceptions and building a narrative about what it meant to be a Muslim or what it meant to be a British Muslim. And I realized that if I didn't own my identity, or start claiming that narrative as my own, I would be almost perpetuating the challenge that I could see happening.
Nadia Nagamootoo 00:38
Hi, my name is Nadia Nagamootoo, Business psychologist, coach, speaker and founder of Avenir consulting, which creates organizational growth and success via inclusion and diversity. We've been discussing the benefits that diversity brings to company's bottom line performance for decades with more and more evidence, but there are so many questions organizations still have about how to achieve it. How do you create a culture where people feel valued for their uniqueness and the qualities they bring? I believe it's crucial to the future success and sustainability every organization that they find the answer to this question, to make sure that each employee is not only supported but also appreciated. With this podcast, I aim to get some of the key challenges to creating inclusive workplaces out in the open and start uncovering the solutions to embracing a culture that cares for everyone. I'm going to be having conversations with some of the most inspiring people in different countries and across industries who are pushing the boundaries on inclusion and diversity in the workplace, from topics such as parenting in the workplace, ethnicity, age, gender, mental health, and all things inclusion. I want to create a movement to change society through sharing life experiences, and creating more empathy and connection. Why care? I believe that once we have organizations and societies that accept and value everyone for who they are, we become healthier, happier and better in our roles both inside and outside work.
Nadia Nagamootoo 02:03
Hello, and welcome to episode 17 of my Why Care Podcast. My name is Nadia Nagamootoo, and I am your host. In this episode I learned from the brilliant Rukasana Bhaijee, who's currently leading the Diversity, Equity and Inclusion agenda across Google's EMEA technology business. Rukasana shares with us her impressive career path covering multiple industries and sectors and working with a government and corporates to develop DEI strategy and build inclusive leadership practices whilst she was at EY. In 2019, she was listed as an inspirational D&I leader and highly commended as an inspirational role model at the European diversity awards. Rukasana shares her experience of microaggressions, prejudice and overt discrimination based on her gender, faith and the clothes that she wears. She also offers some best in class DEI initiatives and programmes at work with insights into Google. It's clear that one of Rukasana’s deep values is to push boundaries and challenge. Inspirational is absolutely what she is. Enjoy the episode.
Rukasana, oh, my goodness, I have been wanting to have you on the show for some time. I've talked to you a little bit. I appreciate. But it's wonderful to have you here. Thank you for saying yes.
Rukasana Bhaijee 03:15
Thank you, Nadia for having me. It's a pleasure to reconnect after a while.
Nadia Nagamootoo 03:21
It has, it's been quite a while and I sort of came into EY when we first met, wasn't it? And then our paths crossed when I was doing Equal Lives as well.
Rukasana Bhaijee 03:28
Yes, that's right. And that workshop was great, the one that you delivered at EY. And yet I remember the launch of a research that you did, that was quite a cool event as well. And it was great to see the discussion moved to working parents versus working mums.
Nadia Nagamootoo 03:43
And we're getting there. I really do feel like that language in the conversation has moved since I first started working in the area of active fathering and male caring in general. And I'm keen to hear just as an in by way of introduction, because I actually don't know your full career history or how you ended up in diversity and inclusion. I’ll just be interested in that journey.
Rukasana Bhaijee 04:06
Yeah, absolutely happy to share, and it was a journey I will say that because I actually grew up in the world of banking. I grew up in the very formal world of the Bank of England, straight after A level so straight from A levels straight into the world of work, at the Bank of England. At one point I was one of only two women on trading room floor at the Bank of England. So, I guess that's where I got my first taste of being the only one. I moved then from the Bank of England to JPMorgan, I spent the next five years still in a similar field. And I took some time out, I took a break to be a mum. So from the official corporate world of work, I took almost 10 years out and re-skilled as a complementary therapist.
Nadia Nagamootoo 04:54
Oh my goodness, I just didn't know that.
Rukasana Bhaijee 04:57
So it's something completely different. I did massage therapy, I work in a lovely Spa on the south bank at the Marriott. So completely different. I got a Saturday job working in a spa. So I was still very much full-time mum. And I was working in the evenings running a social enterprise providing massage services mostly to the east London Asian woman community because it was an area I was passionate about providing that service and bringing the benefits of complimentary therapy to the Asian community, which historically, they maybe hadn't seen the value of in terms of healing properties. So that was something I was passionate about doing in the evenings. And then once my second son started school, I had been craving the corporate world. So I somehow fell into the world of HR, I'm not gonna lie, it was kind of an accident at Queen Mary University, once I fell into that world of HR, I loved it. And then I rescaled again, I became an HR professional. I studied equality and diversity, and coaching at that point. And it's there that I realized the culmination of all my prior experiences from my first and second career, and all the things that I noticed and lived in terms of experiences of inequality, and even going as far back as childhood to being a curious child questioning gender equality whilst growing up and challenging cultural South Asian norms within my own family that we were continuing and perpetuating. I realized, kind of when I fell into the world of HR that this was an opportunity to do some meaningful work. And it was an area I was really passionate about. So I was naturally falling into supporting diversity work within the HR team at Queen Mary University, and was lucky enough to apply for a role there. And that was the start of my D&I journey, which was now almost 10 years ago as well.
Nadia Nagamootoo 06:58
Incredible. And then from there to EY?
Rukasana Bhaijee 07:03
Yes, from Queen Mary University, again, that hankering for the real corporate world that I'd left in JPMorgan was calling me back. So I moved to EY and spent five amazing years at EY. It's a great organization, a great culture, I had an absolute blast there. And I worked for three years there as a D&I practitioner, supporting the UK and Ireland business and working with UK and Ireland business leads to support the organization on its journey to build a diverse workforce and foster an inclusive culture, both hand in hand. And that was amazing. I then spent my last couple of years within the people advisory services. So essentially supporting EY’s clients to help them to build diverse and inclusive organizations. So it was a real vast experience.
Nadia Nagamootoo 07:52
What a vast experience, oh my goodness, it was. That's brilliant. So you're now at Google. And we're going to come on to Google in a moment, as I'm sure you've got lots you can share an offer with regards to some of the work that you're doing right now. And obviously drawing back on stuff that you did at EY too. But I'm drawn to that you as a younger woman or young girl, even at that point where you are growing up and looking at some of the cultural norms around you. And you mentioned about challenging them, which resonated with me, because I'm a first-generation UK born. Is that the same for you?
Rukasana Bhaijee 08:25
Yeah, I'm also first-generation. My parents immigrated here from India in the 60s.
Nadia Nagamootoo 08:32
For me, there was that real internal dilemma or I was trying to make sense of it. I think as a young age of all of this culture, this deeply embedded Mauritian culture that in my household that I was living in and seeing the gender norms play out between my parents, which I still do today, you know, it's still deeply embedded in their relationship in terms of what my dad does and what my mom does, but living and growing up in a different society to the one they grew up in and seeing all of that difference in terms of how other people's parents, my friend's parents roles played out. And what happened to me was almost like a retaliation or a pushing back and a real questioning of whether my parents’ relationship was what I wanted, or what I thought was right. When you're talking about, I suppose challenging the South Asian cultural norms that you mentioned, what did you mean by that?
Rukasana Bhaijee 09:22
Yeah. Everything that you've just said in terms of parental roles or roles in a family household? Who does what? Who's doing the washing up? Who's doing the cooking? Like what are the unsaid or unwritten rules, in the same way, that we have lots of unwritten rules in organizations, we have them in our homes as well. And it was the unwritten rules that I was questioning. Like, I'm one of six children, four sisters, two brothers. And it was questioning well, why didn't my brothers not do the washing up? Why are they not picking up their plates? Why are they not cooking? Why do I need to learn how to cook but they don't and if I was, you know, even playing with friends, why am I being told not to have friends who are boys? Or why can't my friends be boys? Why can't I wear certain clothing? Or why can't I play football, I want to play football. So I think it was challenging everything. But also at the same time being really aware of South Asian-ness standing out and not being part of the norm. As you say, it was almost like toggling two worlds or two operating systems. So it literally was operating like an apple iOS and an Android.
Nadia Nagamootoo 10:36
I love that analogy.
Rukasana Bhaijee 10:37
Actually, on reflection, it's been a challenge. But it's also been a benefit because we've learned how to navigate different spaces and go from one norm to another and move within worlds. But it was jarring at the time, because you're not seeing anybody like you on TV. So, when I grew up early 80s, there was nobody that looked like me on TV, if there was a programme on TV with Asians and we would all jump up when any sign of Indian-ness on the TV was celebrated. Even if it was perpetuating racist stereotypes, like a particular programme in the UK we had was called Mind Your Language and it really was perpetuating stereotypes, now if I look back on it, I don't think it will stand the test of time. But those things like there's nobody like me on TV, there's not many kids like me in popular culture, or when I'm wearing South Asian clothing, people stare at me. And all of a sudden, there was a shift in the late 80s, early 90s, where, you know, there was a lot of cultural appropriation, people like Madonna were starting to wear Henna and Asian-inspired or Indian-inspired clothing with sequins on and all of a sudden it was like, oh, is it cool now to be Indian. But actually, what I quickly realized and still realise to this day is there are different expectations. So it's okay, when somebody like a celebrity is wearing Henna, it's like cool. Oh, it's a Henna tattoo. But on me, it's all of a sudden, oh, it's quite exotic. So there are definitely still assumptions made based on what your skin color is or what you look like.
Nadia Nagamootoo 12:18
It's funny, isn't it? Just because as I was growing up in the UK, I was always pushing back against this sort of, you know, the Bollywood kind of movie, I don't know, I didn't want to watch them. I wasn't interested in them. Because it wasn't for me, I must have got some messages that it wasn't cool, that wasn't what my friends were watching. And so, for me, I just didn't want to embrace that at all, I wanted to disassociate from it. It's an interesting one with that sort of dual membership of cultures and how they meet. And as a young person how to navigate that can be incredibly challenging. I'm interested because you mentioned clothing and the South Asian cultural clothing that you wear, and you said it as you were growing up, obviously, as people were looking at you, but do you still find that now, has anything shifted? You wear a hijab, I know that there are certain biases and I'd love for you to educate me a little bit more about your experience.
Rukasana Bhaijee 13:14
Yeah, that is just an interesting one because, yeah, there's been so many different stages of identity. I guess, growing up, I did identify if you asked me my identity, I would say I'm Indian, and I live in the UK. So I was definitely a British Asian. So the traditional shalwar kameez, which is like a Long Tunic and trousers, I stopped wearing at the age of 17-18, because I was so keen to integrate and fit in, I was so concerned with fitting in, that I stopped wearing it in public places. Public meaning I wouldn't wear it to the workplace, and I wouldn't wear it at the weekend if I was going to white spaces. I would only wear it if I was going out for dinner to an Indian restaurant or to a wedding. So that became the times when I wore my Indian clothing. And it's taken me a long time to reclaim that part of my identity and be Indian-ness. And it was only a couple of years ago, at an evening event at EY, it was a traditional black-tie event and with these things I usually wear a ball gown and evening dress. And I actually thought no, I'm going to wear some Asian couture like an Indian shalwar kameez with lots of bling on it, and I'm going to be me fully me. And that felt like a celebratory moment for me because it's at a much older age, but I'm comfortable, fully comfortable in my own skin. And as you mentioned, I now wear the hijab, so I started wearing the hijab, in my late 20s.
So, post 9/11, and again, this was an attempt at the time to reclaim my Muslim-ness because my Muslim-ness is something that I always had growing up, but I wasn't a visible Muslim. So even in the workplace at the Bank of England or JP Morgan, people would know that I would not eat pork, for instance, or if we were going out at lunchtime, I would not be partaking in any drinks. So they knew I was avoiding alcohol. And even that felt like something I needed to educate them at the time, because it was bizarre. And it was in the banking culture, it was challenging, actually, with people wanting to force drink onto me, that was a horrible experience. And I think post 9/11 what happened was, I realized that there was all of a sudden, a lot of narrative in the media, a lot of narrative in popular culture starting to happen without the voices of the people involved. So people were creating perceptions and building a narrative about what it meant to be a Muslim, or what it meant to be a British Muslim.
And I realized that if I didn't own my identity, or start claiming that narrative as my own, I would be almost perpetuating the challenge that I could see happening and which has continued to happen. So as you've already mentioned, there are consequences of wearing the hijab and being a visible Muslim, there are perceptions perpetuated by the media narrative, perpetuated by folks that haven't read about why women wear the hijab, or what the hijab is. That means that when women want to enter the workplace in places like the UK, for instance, they may end up facing a triple penalty, the penalty of being a Muslim, the penalty of being potentially from a different racial background and also being a woman. So it's almost instead of facing the glass ceiling, yeah, you're facing a triple-glazed or a concrete ceiling, which is almost impossible to penetrate. There are definitely challenges that come with the decision that I've personally made to have my voice matter.
Nadia Nagamootoo 17:10
Yeah. And so have you got like an example of some bias that has played out for you, that you believe is as a result of your hijab, or your clothing or your sort of outward appearance.
Rukasana Bhaijee 17:20
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely a plethora of microaggressions, and moments of inequity. So I mentioned when I had my kids, I rescaled and got a job as a complementary therapist, a Saturday job. To get that Saturday job as a therapist, I had to go through 21 interviews in many different places, in different organizations, not in that same organization. And so, people were calling me based on my resume whether I had the right qualifications to be a therapist. So I was being caught in interviews but as soon as I entered the space, the visible response from some folks was one of shock. And I guess when you close your eyes, and you picture a beauty therapist or a complementary therapist, a short Asian woman in a hijab, maybe doesn't come to mind straight away. So even before, people would ask me to trial and deliver a massage, they would see me and pretty much within the first minute of the conversation, I would know that this wasn't going anywhere, and I wasn't getting that particular Saturday job. So it was then that I really realized, okay, previously, as a South Asian woman, I experienced otherness, I experienced maybe even curiosity in some cases, discrimination in some, but now I felt like an outsider in a completely different way. So, my first experiences of getting a job as a visible Muslim, was one that was going to be a challenge wherever place I'm going to, whatever sector I'm going to be in. So it was a real wake up call for me. And it's one where I did persevere. And on that 21st interview, I managed to secure a Saturday job which was like, probably one of the biggest achievements of my life, even though it was for minimum wage, etcetera, it was definitely an achievement.
Nadia Nagamootoo 19:22
It is an achievement, and on many levels. What I love about what I've heard you just say there is that when you think of a beauty therapist, you don't picture someone who looks like me. And it seems to be that that's a theme in your life in terms of looking at the world around you, not seeing people who look like you and yet pushing the boundaries and going yeah, but that's what I want to be and that's who I am. And I can be the first. I can be one of the very few and you’ve persisted through 21 interviews. I mean, to get a Saturday job, to do something that you're qualified for, the barriers are systemic, aren't they? Because when I'm hearing that I'm thinking, it is not simply the bias and the prejudice that lies with the person who's interviewing you. But actually what's going on in their mind around well, if you've got customers where you would have as a therapist, they have to preempt what the customers and how the customers might feel about being served by someone, a woman in a hijab or an Asian woman. So that's the issue isn't it, that you might get someone who is open-minded, but then they're thinking about their business, they're thinking about the world around them, and how forward-thinking the world is, it's a massive thing to try and shift.
Rukasana Bhaijee 20:33
Yeah, it was every single conversation that I had with every single individual, I treat it as an opportunity to shift those pre-conceptions, because it's preconceptions, its assumptions, that are holding those people back from opening their mind to difference. One, because they don't understand or they're not taking the time to understand, and once someone talks to a Muslim woman, they'll realise that they have aspirations, they have dreams, they are intelligent, not each of them will be the same. We're not a cookie-cutter line of similar individuals with similar thoughts, feelings, ideas, we have different ways to practice our faith. So there's no one cookie-cutter approach to being a Muslim woman. I've definitely seen that persisting, and my experiences pre and post-hijab, and my Muslim-ness has no doubt impacted the systemic challenges that you mentioned, such as the access to opportunities, or even the gatekeepers to opportunities, such as the preconceptions of those gatekeepers to opportunities. I know, even from my move to EY and to Google, for instance, at the time when I started looking, one of my colleagues who is also a D&I practitioner, would hand recruiters my name, and will tell people, Oh, get in touch with my good friend, she's here, she's done this and she would pass my name on. And nobody would contact me. So even those, it was such an interesting thing and we kept saying at the time, well, we need to write an article about this, because she would pass my name to recruiters from different organizations who just didn't get in touch. And she was like, it's clearly obvious, they've got in touch with me a white woman, I've given them your name, they probably looked at your profile and thought nah, she's not what we picture, or can we sell her to the client. So it's those things like that, and walking into a room and knowing that I'm gonna have to work harder to build my credibility, or my credibility might be questioned if I speak, or it won't be heard in the same way. Or I might have to make my point that little bit harder. And as women, I think we have to do all this anyway. Yeah, we have to speak in a different way, or we know that we'll have to speak with credibility or may get mansplained a few minutes later. But I think the hijab definitely added that layer of, okay, how am I gonna get my voice heard, because in some spaces I know I will be othered in terms of attitudes, time, the energy, and the space that I might get. So it's definitely one of the systemic challenges in terms of individual biases perpetuating systemic processes, but also systemic processes keeping somebody like me out of the gates completely.
Nadia Nagamootoo 23:32
Oh my god. So, the work that we do, both of us, and any sort of diversity equity inclusion practitioner is striving to create that sort of cultural societal shift at that deep systemic level. And I know ownership should be at that deeper societal level to shift the system rather than focus on the people who are from minority groups or underrepresented groups. When I listen to you, I hear this perspective, this shift in the framing of it, which is seeing it as an opportunity on stepping into your identity and owning your identity. And I hear courage I suppose when I'm listening to you, knowing the barriers, knowing the bias, knowing the discrimination that you could face, but yet still owning your identity. Do you have any advice for people I suppose from minority groups who have constantly been subjected to these microaggressions or subtle acts of exclusion each day?
Rukasana Bhaijee 24:23
I think one, know your own limits in terms of what you can manage and handle. So knowing yourself and not being afraid to lead authentically. So if you're safe to do so, if you're in a safe space, always lead authentically and don’t bend your own values or needs. So being true to your own values would be something I would always say. And in the last year, I will say with the shift in the focus on race equity in organizations and the definite rise of the George Floyd's murder, race equity is getting onto the agenda in a way that it hasn't before, I would encourage individuals to demand more of their organizations. And I saw an article on this recently where somebody didn't take a role when they were offered because they'd faced inequity, they hadn't been valued at the organization for who they were, and then they decided to go somewhere where they would be valued. So if you're not getting what you need, or if your demands aren't being heard, talent at the moment is being valued elsewhere. So don't be afraid to look elsewhere and go to where your values and your purpose will be welcomed with open arms. So I think personal safety, personal sanity, look after yourself first, but in terms of organization, I think organizations are dealing with a reckoning at the moment as well post the race equity movement. Now one year on, they hopefully are all reflecting and thinking, what can we do? What have we done? What have we achieved? And what do we need to do in organizations to tackle societal race and equity, faith and equity, whatever the inequity might be. And I would always say to organizations, start by building a culture of belonging for all. So do all the individuals at your organization feel like they belong and can perform to their best stability? What's hindering them? Because if they're experiencing a culture where they're not feeling valued or heard, there's no point in having an organization filled with individuals who are from different genders, different racial backgrounds, different experiences, all forms of diversity, if they're not feeling welcomed, if they're not feeling valued, or heard, how can you create that culture of belonging for all and get the basics right? Because if you don't get the basics right, then that's definitely a challenge as well.
Nadia Nagamootoo 27:02
Yeah. So, we can't speak and not speak about Google. Google is, obviously in the Tech industry. You've worked in other industries, banking industry, and of course, professional services at EY. So, what do you feel now that you've been at Google for some time, working in the D&I space. What is distinct in terms of some of those challenges across those industries based on your experience?
Rukasana Bhaijee 27:29
Yeah. And it's always, and I felt the same thing I think when I moved from Queen Mary doing D&I work into professional services. And now having moved to Google, I also reflected that the challenges are actually quite similar. The overarching challenge, I think, in terms of representation of women, that's very similar at Google to professional services, or the Tech industry overall, it's perhaps more perpetuated by who's taking STEM subjects in terms of university or computer science as a profession. And that's across the world. We've seen a dip in the number of women pursuing Tech as a career, whereas historically, and many popular films like Hidden Figures have brought to light actually, there were many different individuals like Grace Hopper, like Katherine Johnson, at the start of the Tech age. It was women that were spearheading, that were leading the charge on these new computers. So moving from human computers to the computers that were being created and coding. And then when the people with power, potentially men realise that this was an industry that would be valued and not like being a secretary, how can we reclaim that space?
So, I think over time, Tech has faced a particular challenge, where women were essentially pushed out of the in-group. I've been reading a lot about this obviously, moving into Google, it was definitely an area where it did feel like a pushing out of women’s talent and then perpetuated by media perceptions of what it means to be in Tech or what it means to participate in Tech culture. So picture now what does it look like to be in Tech, you might picture someone that looks like a white man in T-shirt and jeans, a Mark Zuckerberg, you might picture parties, late-night coding, pizzas. Startup world culture was perpetuated by media narratives, by organizations that could have done things differently at the time to welcome difference into Tech and the rise in computer science, as such, the women studying computer science then started to take a dip. So, I think that particular challenge in Tech has been perpetuated just in the last 30 years or so, that's something that is still there in terms of what we’re pushing against. We're pushing for more women representation across Tech, and we're pushing for more transparency.
And that's something that's definitely been there for many years, across somewhere like professional services, and the finance industry as a whole. In many other sectors we've been pushing for women representation over a number of times. And that challenge is very similar now in Tech to what it was in professional services, to what it was in academia when I was in academia. So, the women representation challenge is one and specifically women in leadership positions. So why is there a leaky pipeline at a particular level? Why is it that we're losing women and not seeing more women in leadership positions, and we did some research at EY and it wasn't a motherhood penalty. For instance, it wasn't that women were leaving to become moms per se, it was a whole plethora of a number of reasons.
And there was no easy answer, or there was no one single answer or a single story. And like with much of D&I work, there's similar in Tech, there's no single story. There's no single initiative or silver bullet that's going to make that difference. But it is, it will make a difference when we start to, I believe, continue to be transparent about progress that's being made, continue to be transparent about intention, what is the intention of the organization? So for me, specifically, what's the intention at Google, and I think we've done a good job of that this year, we've got a diversity annual report, which is available for anyone to look at online. We've been quite vocal about progress being slow, but we know that we're in it for the long term, this isn't something that we're going to solve with a magic wand overnight. But we have that intention to do better, be better, and continue to push for change. So that's something that I've been really proud to be a part of the journey in Tech.
Nadia Nagamootoo 32:03
What example do you have of some initiative that is pushing the boundaries to try and get that shift, particularly from a gender perspective?
Rukasana Bhaijee 32:12
One of the things I was about to mention was something that I've been so impressed by and I haven't seen other organizations doing. At Google, we have a specific retention and progression team. And Rachel Spidi who leads there, she has a short video in a diversity annual report, but in the last year, we've doubled the number of resources in this particular team. And it's a team of individuals supporting people at Google, people that are with us, and we want them to progress, and we want to retain that talent, and this team of individuals supports people Googlers on their journeys, whether that's thinking about their next role, or what's going to be right for them by providing coaching guidance.
And there is a Google Keyword blog on retention and progression featuring Rachel as well. It was something I focused on when I was looking at Google as a potential employer. I looked at some of our representation data and I was thinking and questioning, oh, there's not been much movement. Are they serious about this? Are they just talking about diversity? Or is it somewhere where I actually think we can make a difference? It was reading about the retention and progression team that really, I think was one of my kind of attracting factors because I hadn't seen anybody focus on retention and progression of existing talent. So really, growing your existing talent, in the same way that Google are doing. It's easy to talk about hiring and bringing in more women or more individuals from underrepresented groups. But what are they actually doing once that talent gets there? How are they supporting their talent and progressing their talent? So I think that's why that specific example is a really powerful one for me. And if anyone looks at our diversity annual report, you'll read about it too, and hopefully be inspired.
Nadia Nagamootoo 32:56
Hmm, well, we'll put it in the show notes so that people can access it easily. With your cumulative experience then, so we've got academia, we've got banking, we've got professional services, and tech.
Of all of that, so is there anything you've come across in your diversity, equity and inclusion journey, is there anything that's particularly resonated with you that you thought that's impressive, that has really pushed the dial on inclusion in this organization?
Rukasana Bhaijee 34:28
Yeah, I think that the number one thing for me is, and the reason why I do this job and the reason I love it so much is working with leaders to build their capability. So that is, without a doubt, the number one thing that I believe will shift that inclusion dial not just at the macro level, which is obviously important, we want to see organizations changing in terms of what we see and who we see and whether leadership is more representative and whether there is anyone that looks like me. So I think when you have leaders that are clear about their why for shifting the needle on diversity and building inclusive cultures, and we get that to have a ripple effect, we also start to see that micro experience shifting in terms of individuals in organization in their day to day feeling of that difference. So are they feeling a change, are they feeling a shift? It's when those individuals at that micro level start to notice that there are people that look like them, or there are people that care, or there are people that are being curious. If somebody's celebrating something specific, but the manager knows about it already, and ask them, oh, I noticed it's this, I hope you have a great time or if they're feeling included, regardless of their identity, not regardless of it, but because of it, that they're celebrated. I think that for me, is powerful. And that only happens with that overarching leadership buy-in, with that leadership understanding, and it being embedded into everyday experiences and everyday business decision-making. So at Google, we also have some research that's featured in the Harvard Business Review about our approach to product inclusion. And it's not always perfect, and we do get things wrong. But we've really tried to embed our user experience in terms of the products that we're building, the influence that we have more broadly. And so that's where we have groups and individuals who provide those diverse experiences, points of view and thoughts. So when it's embedded into our day-to-day work, that's when we know, that's when for me as well, an organization if they're thinking about D&I, as a business as usual, in terms of what they're doing as an organization, how they're living and breathing, how they're operating in terms of people management as a whole, as opposed to they have a D&I function, and that D&I function will sort things out, or create some initiatives. For me, it really is moving away from a D&I initiative into this is who we are, this is what we do, we're living it. And that really, for me starts with that accountability piece and having that leader at the top.
Nadia Nagamootoo 37:32
For sure. The work that I'm doing with certain clients at the moment, there's a stepping stone for some organizations who due to COVID the organization has taken a brutal hit, redundancies have had to happen and all that, and that the leaders are just about surviving in terms of managing the workload. And so what I'm experiencing now at this moment in time, is that leaders need so much support to get them to a point where they have capacity almost, to overlay the accountability and responsibility and the lens on diversity, equity, and inclusion, and to be a truly inclusive leader. Because it takes effort, it isn't something that you can just do automatically and by default. To be inclusive, you have to know, you have to listen, you have to dedicate the time, you have to want to spend time reading, getting educated, and listening to people. And I'm finding at the moment that this is a point where it's so critical that leaders focus on inclusion and better understand what it means to be an inclusive leader for the long-term sustainability of the organization. And yet, there's this firefighting going on and it’s just about surviving where some of them are at where you overlay learning about being an inclusive leader and they might just explode and get overwhelmed with it. So, what would you say to that, for organizations that are feeling overwhelmed? Or leaders who are feeling overwhelmed at the moment?
Rukasana Bhaijee 38:58
Yeah, I think that's where the value, the long-term value of taking the time to focus on your leadership style? Because ultimately, as you say, you need to put in the effort. If you put in the effort, what will be the long-term value? What are the long-term gains that you get as a leader by taking an approach to mindful leadership to your approach to inclusive leadership? What's the value you're going to get at a financial level in terms of productivity increase and innovation increase? So whatever sector you're in, we know that when leaders are inclusive, and when they lead inclusively, we see an increase in innovation, we see an increase in productivity when individuals feel a sense of belonging. So, it's those small mindful leadership moments that will ultimately, even though it may feel like effort and energy that you're putting in now. As with anything, it is like when we're studying and we have to put in the effort to get a qualification, we know the long-term impact and that the long-term benefits are going to be greater. It's the same with continuing to work on yourself as a leader. So I think as a leader weighing up well, if you just firefighting, you'll keep firefighting. If you put in the investment to pause, and reflect, that's when you'll get greater value.
Nadia Nagamootoo 37:32
I’m with you. It's been an absolute pleasure Rukasana, thank you so much for your time. If anyone wants to get ahold of you after listening to this podcast, where can they get ahold of you?
Rukasana Bhaijee 40:31
Yeah, I'm on LinkedIn. I'm on Twitter. So usual platforms, more than happy to connect. And likewise, thank you so much for taking the time to talk this morning. It's been a real pleasure.
Nadia Nagamootoo 40:42
Yeah, it's been brilliant. So anything that Rukasana and I spoke about today, it's going to be available on the show notes page, which is the usual place www.avenirconsultingservices.com under podcasts. I will catch up with you no doubt soon, Rukasana, all the best with everything you're doing at Google. So, thank you so much for joining me.
Rukasana Bhaijee 41:00
Thank you Nadia.
Nadia Nagamootoo 41:03
That concludes episode 17 of the Why Care Podcast. Rukasana words to demand more from your organization has really stuck with me. She covered so much in this conversation from race and faith in equity, microaggressions, women in tech, othering, cultural appropriation, and building leadership capability. Do let Rukasana and I know what you thought of today's show. You can find me on LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram with the handle at Nadia Nagamootoo and at avenirconsultingservices.com As always I really appreciate your support this podcast through leaving a review on whatever platform you're listening and spreading the word by sharing it with your friends and family. Huge thanks to Mauro Kenji for editing this podcast and Jon Rice for supporting with the show notes and getting it out there on social media.