Why Care? #15: Sheri Crosby Wheeler - The Self-Fulfilling Prophecy of Stereotyping
“I was looking for something to aspire to, but I also knew – I don’t know why – it can’t be the situation where I can’t ascend to those things. What I see around me is not the true picture of the world. That’s what I just started to tell myself. Maybe there’s people here who think that’s the case, but I don’t believe it and I’m gonna set out to prove that’s not the case; that there are people like me who do things like own businesses, or they’re doctors, or lawyers or teachers even.”
In Episode 15 of the ‘Why Care?’ podcast, I am joined by Sheri Crosby Wheeler, Vice President of Diversity and Inclusion for Fossil Group, Inc. We discuss how stereotypes and expectations based on diversity characteristics can filter into young people's minds and be internalised to create and fuel self-fulfilling prophecies.
We open the episode by discussing Sheri’s journey into becoming a DEI practitioner. Born in a small town in Texas, Sheri then spent a few years in Germany due to her military father’s station, before moving back to Texas to begin her education. Her small town in Texas had no Black professional role models for Sheri to look up to, so as soon as possible she moved to Atlanta to seek out professionals that looked like her.
Following this discussion about a lack of role models, we talk about how Sheri had no Black teachers in her entire education until her postgraduate Law course, and how having no role models (or even an understanding of lived experience) during education can have an adverse effect on a young person.
Sheri shares her personal story on how her teachers and guidance counsellors attempted to dissuade her from pursuing further education outside of Texas. She felt a weight of responsibility on her shoulders to ‘prove them wrong’ and pressure not return to her hometown and therefore be seen as a failure.
Working in the DEI field has its ups and downs, victories and losses, and we talk about these and how to prepare for the inevitable bad days. Sheri shares how it’s not just about changing the minds of people, but changing hearts too: ‘heart work’. Sometimes people will just not have the capacity to care about your work and you need to be able to identify where to focus your attention on those whose minds and hearts you can change.
We also discuss the unique challenges of DEI in the retail industry, including having a widespread employee base geographically, and empowering customer-facing employees to protect themselves and uphold inclusion. Fossil is currently focusing on building up communication and offering sharing and learning opportunities for its employees across the world. Sheri then gives insight as to why Fossil has been named one of the best companies for LGBTQ+ employees to work for by the Corporate Equality Index.
Links
For more from Sheri, you can find her on LinkedIn at Sheri Crosby Wheeler
For more from Fossil visit their website at www.fossilgroup.com
You can find more on the Sephora Racial Bias Study that Sheri mentions in this Forbes Article
For more on Dr Charles Drew, the African American Doctor Sheri mentioned, you can find his Wikipedia article here.
To hear Why Care? episodes first, sign up to our newsletter here, and you can find more from us at Avenir via our LinkTree here.
Transcript
Sheri Crosby 00:00
I find I have to actively, actively work on things. I think the first thing is, as soon as you feel those assumptions, biases, and prejudices popping up, you have to just recognize it and be like, Nah, you gotta tear it down. Because then if you just let it go, you're gonna let it lay on top of this person, and then how you're going to interact with them, or you're going to apply it to this person who you don't even know .
Nadia Nagamootoo 00:25
Hi, my name is Nadia Nagamootoo, Business psychologist, coach, speaker and founder of Avenir consulting, which creates organizational growth and success by inclusion and diversity. We've been discussing the benefits that diversity brings to a company's bottom line performance for decades with more and more evidence, but there are so many questions organizations still have about how to achieve it. How do you create a culture where people feel valued for their uniqueness and the qualities they bring? I believe it's crucial to the future success and sustainability every organization that they find the answer to this question, to make sure that each employee is not only supported but also appreciated. With this podcast, I aim to get some of the key challenges to creating inclusive workplaces out in the open and start uncovering the solutions to embracing a culture that cares for everyone. I'm going to be having conversations with some of the most inspiring people in different countries and across industries who are pushing the boundaries on inclusion and diversity in the workplace, from topics such as parenting in the workplace, ethnicity, age, gender, mental health, and all things inclusion. I want to create a movement to change society through sharing life experiences, and creating more empathy and connection. Why care? I believe that once we have organizations and societies that accept and value everyone for who they are, we become healthier, happier and better in our roles both inside and outside work.
Hello, and welcome to episode 15 of my Why Care Podcast. My name is Nadia Nagamootoo, and I am your host. In this episode, I speak to the brilliant and compelling storyteller Sheri Crosby Wheeler, the Vice President of Diversity and Inclusion for Fossil group. You're likely to know Fossil group for its high-street stores selling watches, accessories and wearables. Sheri is a diversity leader and employment lawyer and an avid community volunteer. Together we go deep in dismantling the bias in the system which prevents young minority people from fulfilling their potential. Sheri shares her personal story and the continuous voices that she's had in her life trying to limit her growth and her inspiring self-belief to push beyond that. We also discuss DEI challenges in the retail industry specifically, and how she's facilitating ways to overcome them. Not only is this episode packed with insights, best practice, and tips for DEI leaders and practitioners, you'll soon get the sense of the fun and energy that Sheri applies to all that she does. It's really infectious. Enjoy. Sheri, welcome. I'm just so excited to have you on the show. Lovely to see you again.
Sheri Crosby 03:00
Thank you for having me. Thank you for inviting me to just have a good chat with you and you know, talk about diversity and inclusion. I'm excited.
Nadia Nagamootoo 03:09
Me too. I've been admittedly stalking you slightly. I love the story that you have around how you found yourself in the area of diversity, equity, and inclusion. And I'd really love to hear from you personally directly, because I've read a lot. I feel like I kind of know you already. But if you wouldn't mind sharing with us, like your upbringing, where you grew up, because that's all part of your story, right?
Sheri Crosby 03:34
Yeah. Where do I start? I'm a Texan. And I was born in El Paso, Texas. But my dad was in the military. So then in my first like, five years, I lived in Germany. And then we came back to the United States and we went back to Texas. And like I said, I grew up in Texas, graduated from high school here in Texas, but I was ready to go, I was ready to leave Texas and see somewhere else. This is kind of that start of I wouldn't say the start of the D&I journey, but a part of it because I wanted to go somewhere where I thought that I would see professionals that looks like me. Because in the town where I grew up, there were none at all. And it was a small town, doctors, lawyers, policemen, firefighters, accountants, and anybody.
Nadia Nagamootoo 04:25
Anybody with power of some kind.
Sheri Crosby 04:25
Okay, yeah, we have none of that in the town I grew up and I thought, well, this is not a true picture of the world. I know it's not. And so I said, I want to go somewhere where I can see professionals. And if I say professionals, white collar, maybe I don't know, because I was just thinking in an office or a doctor in a hospital or something. That's how I picked Atlanta, Georgia, because I knew that there was a large population of African Americans in Atlanta.
Nadia Nagamootoo 04:56
At such a young age. Why was that important to you do you think to have some visible role models or what was it that you felt you needed that wasn't there?
Sheri Crosby 05:03
I think I was looking for something to aspire to. But I also don't know why I just knew that, okay, it can't be the situation where I can't ascend to those things. What I see around me is not the true picture of the world. That's what I've just started to tell myself. And I'm like, maybe there's people here that think that's the case, but I don't believe it. And I'm going to set out to prove that that's not the case, that there are people like me, who do things like own businesses, or they’re doctors or their lawyers or their CPAs or teachers, even. I did not have an African American teacher, I think I didn't have one until law school.
Nadia Nagamootoo 05:56
Until you got to your degree?
Sheri Crosby 05:48
Yes, until law school. So I don't even think I had one in undergrad. Yeah.
Nadia Nagamootoo 05:56
What? Oh, my goodness. That is making me think now, that concept, exactly what you just said. Because I'm now thinking of my own childhood. So it was all white teachers in primary, all white teachers in secondary, all white lectures. Oh, my goodness, I have never, never been taught by someone from a black heritage. I have been taught by someone of an Asian Indian background. That's one person. And that was postgrad. Oh, my goodness, that's blown me away. I can't actually believe that that's true.
Sheri Crosby 06:36
Now I'm thinking maybe I had, maybe it was in college, in the later years in college. That was a long time ago. So I might, but it was not in high school. It was not in elementary. It was not in the beginning of college, maybe the later years. Definitely in law school. I remember the professor in law school, but one after all those years having gone to school. I mean, how many is that, that's 12 plus 4. That’s 16 plus I did a year of a master's, that's 17 plus 3 year, there's 20 years of school. Like to do it, we're not in the minority, right, we have to assume that the majority of people have not been taught by someone who have an ethnic background. And here's why it's important. Not only do you get to see someone that's like you, but we all bring perspectives, our backgrounds, our biases to what we do, to our work to teaching as well. So I'll give you an example, I was in my high school English class and it was like the class for your Honours students, you took honours. We had this assignment,I it was after reading a book, I don't remember what the book was but in the book, there were, I think brothers, one was a doctor and one was a lawyer. So one of our assignments was to write down famous doctors, or I guess, famous lawyers that we knew. Everybody had to write them down. And if you wrote down something that somebody else had written, then it got like, marked out, like they cancelled each other out. So when it came my time to share the doctor that I wrote down, I was like, Who can I think of? And so I thought of Dr. Charles Drew, I told my teacher, I was like Dr. Charles Drew. Now this is a teacher who, the authority figure there in the room everybody is listening to. She was like, I've never heard of him. I'm not aware. So all of a sudden, my credibility is called into question like, Sheri who are you bringing up? Dr. Charles Drew, was responsible for creating blood banks in the United States. She didn't know who he was. I knew who he was, he's an African American man who was responsible for that. And he died in a car accident and this has been disputed whether or not it's true, but the story is that he didn't receive a blood transfusion, because he was taken to a white hospital, so he ended up dying. But it's not disputed that he was responsible for creating blood banks. And she was like, I don't know who that is. So everybody's kind of looking at me at that point, like is Sheri out here making up people. Because the authority figure in the room didn't know who he was. And I just thought, wow, so she hasn't even learned, this is important. She doesn't even know and she's our teacher, but I knew it. And maybe a different teacher would, because a lot of African Americans know who Dr. Charles Drew is. He's a big deal but she did not know of him. And I said, you know, maybe it would have been different, and my credibility wouldn’t have been called into question. So I kind of just kind of shrunk like, wow, that made me feel bad, that she was questioning who I brought up, like, oh, that person must not be real, because I've never heard of them.
And so that's another reason why it's important to have different perspectives when you're teaching children. So anyway, that's why I went to Atlanta, I was like, I need to see more people like me. I barely got into that school. I'll take that back, but it was the only one of two schools that I applied to. You know later on, I learned that you don't do that, you need a range of schools, some safe ones, some may be a little harder and some really hard ones, like you need a range. I didn't have counsellors that were encouraging me in that fashion. What they were encouraging me to do was play it safe and stay in the same city. They were like, don't leave, you can go to school here, I'm like, I've been here all this time, I want to leave. And they’re like, no, you can just go to this little college here, and I said, no, I don't want to, and they were like, just play it safe. I don't think counsellors should do this, not telling you that ‘yes, you can you can do it go out there, fly, I believe in you’, but instead saying like, ‘nah, be safe, play it safe’.
Nadia Nagamootoo 10:43
What would you think was driving their advice to you? Was it because of the color of your skin and their belief that that's the best thing for someone like you. Or what's behind that?
Sheri Crosby 10:53
I think that was what it was like, you're aiming too high, you need to stay right here, this is what we know that probably you're capable of, nevermind the fact that I was in the top 10% of my class. So out of like, 237 students, I was like number 12 or 13. So it wasn't that I was not smart, it wasn't that I couldn't do it but they are like, stay here and play. And I just thought, well, no, I'm not, it's time for me to go out. I was not prepared for this big city and I wasn't prepared for the rigors of my undergrad, I wasn't prepared. Emory University is a very highly ranked school, I thought that I could do what I did in high school in college and get the same grades. No, I did the same things and a little bit less, and I was failing. So I was placed on academic probation but my mind snapped in like, wait a minute, you've never failed before, what are you doing? First of all, you're wasting your money, because you have loans. That's what you're doing. Second of all, people are going to be so disappointed in you. Third, you're trying to escape, if you will, there are these expectations that you can't do these things. Also, you're trying to pull your family out of some of the poverty and this is all on you.
Nadia Nagamootoo 12:07
Right but pointing to your shoulders there because I can see that actually, I was about to say what a weight to carry. That actually is not just about you, this is about the system and challenging the system. So what you were doing is that and so this can have an impact on my family and anyone who looks like me, and has similar characteristics to me going forward, that they can believe it’s possible.
Sheri Crosby 12:31
Right. And I felt like if I failed in that little town where I came from, a lot of times you would have people that they went away and people who you're rooting them on and they left, and then when they come back, people were like, oh, that didn’t work. And I was so afraid of being that one that left and it didn’t work and coming back and people saying, see, we knew she can’t do it. I don't want that to be my story.
Nadia Nagamootoo 12:58
I get it, you did it for yourself but there was something deeper as well, which was actually proving to the system, proving to those counsellors, proving to whoever thought no, Sheri needs to just stay here and play it safe that actually, you know, this girl can.
Sheri Crosby 13:11
Right. What was funny was I was on academic probation after my first semester. My husband laughs at me, he was like, how could you get an F in Choir? I mean, it's not like I'm sitting at F level, but I just wasn't doing what I was supposed to do. And so I let those doubts creep in,I even took a break, I did not go back at the start of my sophomore year. I was like, oh, maybe they were right, maybe I was aiming too high, and I applied to different schools, a couple in Texas.. I was like, well, maybe I just need to play it safe. In the meantime, I was just working at home. So I had a semester where I just went home and I was just working. But by this time my mom had moved back to El Paso, working without a degree in El Paso was extremely difficult, like there were only certain jobs you could get. And those were some of the hardest jobs that I still to this day ever had. I worked as a housekeeper, I worked at a convenience store overnight by myself, I was 19 years old. And so I was like, Oh my word like Sheri, you're failing, all the things that people thought was gonna happen is happening, you're failing. And I remember getting on the phone with one of my girlfriends, and we're talking, I was like, Man, I miss Emory, she was like, we miss you so much, I wish you'd come back. And I was like, I want to come back but I don't know, you know, how can I now? And she was like, I don't know, we just hope you will come back. And I was like, well, let me see what I can do. So I called the school and I said, Well, what will it take for me to come back? And I thought it was going to be all these hoops and all this work and they were like, well just write a letter and say you want to come back and I was like that's it. I started typing on a typewriter because this is like type-writer back then. I was like, let me type my letter so I can go back and I ended up going back second semester.
Nadia Nagamootoo 15:06
To me that story is about how the system that should be flying your flag and supporting you at a young age, how much of a detrimental impact that can have, those messages that get embedded into your head, even though you said, No, I can and I will. Actually, those messages can't be raised, it can't be taken back, so they're still in your head and every single day, you're trying to counter them, you're trying to fight that message and play a different message. And so sometimes you don't win, sometimes that message keeps playing and you haven't been able to rewrite it.
Sheri Crosby 15:39
Right. And that's why I think now, I'm so sensitized to when people are providing those messages to young people. So I was at a presentation of a non-profit, here in the area where I live, and it's a non-profit that's supposed to be helping young people. And the executive director was like, well, these kids, what's going to happen to them is that they're not gonna graduate. I mean, she said, it was like it was a fait accompli, like, this is what's going to happen to them, they're not going to graduate, they're going to drop out, they're gonna get pregnant, but I'm thinking, you're telling me this, I hope you're not telling these children this, there should never be a message of like, this is what's going to happen. I actually went to a programme like that and I actually remember the lady saying, this is what the statistics say, because of your background, because of your socio-economics, this is what they say is going to happen to you. And I'm sitting in the audience, and I'm this like, a 13-year-old girl, in my head, I was like, that's not gonna happen, what are you saying?
Nadia Nagamootoo 16:42
And then she's telling you, t she's like, be the stats, don't be one of those people? Or is she telling you to sort of keep you in check? What was the purpose?
Sheri Crosby 16:50
No, it was because of this programme that you're in, because of this non-profit, we’re the reason that you will not be and that was the same thing that I was hearing recently from another non-profit, because of the non-profits intervention, then you will not be this thing, or these things will happen to you. And I always thought about that. And I'm like, you're taking the agency, away from people, you're taking agency away from these children, because it's not the non-profit, you're just talking, they have to live, they have to work, they have to fight. They're the ones living their lives, it's not the non-profit externally, like yeah, you might be providing information and resources, but they're doing the work, whatever that work is. So it's not because of the nonprofit, these children are thriving or surviving or becoming whatever that they become, it's because of the kids. So anyways, I'm very sensitized to that now, very sensitized.
Nadia Nagamootoo 17:46
I see that and I'm with you. I've got a not-for profit, like a social enterprise working, it's called inclusive schools. And we work with primary schools to try and embed that message at the grassroots level that anything is possible, you don't have to sit in this box of what it means to be an Asian girl, or what it means to be a white boy, like this is all socially constructed, it isn't something that you have to conform to, you can believe whatever you want. And we would like to suggest that you look at the environment, look at the messages and go, Why is that the case? Why do I have to follow what you tell me a girl needs to be or you tell me a boy needs to be like or tell me what a black person needs to look like.
Sheri Crosby 18:31
I just believe in empowering messages of like, it's because of you, not the organization or person. I'm just here to help in whatever way but whatever happens, whatever comes from this, whatever you achieve, it's all because of you. It's like 1%, because I said something, it's 99% because of what you did, what you believe and what you have done. That's what I want sometimes, I want the message to get out. I haven't even gotten halfway through my story or D&I but this is the background.
Nadia Nagamootoo 19:00
Yeah, absolutely. And in looking at that organizational lens, through your work in your career today and at Fossil, when working in this space, I don't know if you find it to where I feel like I'm taking lots of steps forward sometimes and I'm like, oh my goodness, that was a win. Look at the change, look at how people got that message and the difference in behavior, and people can see what they need to do now in this space, and it's really uplifting. Then the next moment I’m facilitating another workshop or talking to someone else and it's like I'm hitting a wall again, and I've taken like 10 steps back and going, no, this is really hard work. And it feels to me that you can't work in the DEI space without being okay with that oscillating kind of ups and downs highs and lows, so how do you manage that?
Sheri Crosby 19:48
Yeah, you know what, I feel like maybe I didn't know it at the time because I call myself a reluctant DEI practitioner because I didn't want to do it. I was given the option at a previous employer. and it's an option, you could say no, but will you really, I thought about it and I was like I don't want to, because I knew that it was going to be hard. I knew that the work was going to be up, down, up, down, I knew that you can hit walls. I knew it just based on my legal career, just based on my background, I knew it, and I was like, I don't want any part of it. I also thought that I would be pigeonholed because sometimes people see Black and Brown professionals and just think, Oh, well, you know, you’re a diversity hire or the only thing you can do is work on diversity. I'm like, no, it's not and I didn't want anybody to think that. But I'm like, well, Sheri also, on the flip side, this has been something in the background of your life all along, through school and through legal career, so this is your opportunity to step in and try to do something.
Nadia Nagamootoo 20:58
That's how I feel.
Sheri Crosby 21:00
Yeah, yeah. And so but I think not saying any one person is better than another in this work, everybody just comes to it the way that they can but I think if you've had to like build up those grit muscles, and you face some adversity, I think it better prepares you for this job. Because if you took some of those uncomfortable nerves with people, or you hit a patch, where people were upset or angry, and you've not encountered a lot of that, that might rush you back on your heels, versus someone who's like, okay, I've been here before, this is how I'm going to handle it, or this is what I'm going to do. So even this week, I've been frustrated about something on the phone, my husband's like, I hear your voice shaking because I was so mad and frustrated about something. And it just happens, it happens. So I feel like there needs to be a lot of reaching out to other practitioners and leaning on them knowing that, okay, this is not a singular experience of whatever thing that you're coming up against, it's not, it's happening to a bunch of people. And then it's also to the point where I'm like, you know what I might need to go and also just sit down with a professional and I'll let some of this out so that I'm not holding it in because right now it's just my husband, I'm like, I can't just give him all these negative feelings. He's gonna be like this lady, I don't want to talk to her when she comes from work, and I'm not saying everything is negative, but you're dealing with it. I've heard somebody call it hard work before because you're changing not just minds, you're changing hearts sometimes, for some people who are like, I'm neutral, or I don't believe in this and to try to move them off of that neutrality, or try to move them off of I don't believe in this, and I don't want to participate. That's changing and that's hard. That's hard.
Nadia Nagamootoo 22:50
It's so hard. And I say like when you're able to take people on this journey, and it is a journey for them in terms of self-awareness, there needs to be some open-mindedness that they want to better understand themselves as well as the system. It is such an incredible feeling when you hear people have that ‘aha’ moment and go, Oh, my goodness, I've never realized this is something that's fundamentally going to change how I lead or how I am, versus the recognition that when I don't have that moment, and some people are still like that, no matter how long this journey is. Sometimes I run programs or several workshops, and even from start to finish, there is nothing that has landed, they have looked through the evaluation forms, I've learned nothing. How can you have learned nothing in everything that we've been speaking about? So that's the disheartening thing for me, but that's not my job is it? That's not our job, right?
Sheri Crosby 23:39
Right. And you know, what's interesting, I wrote to myself this week, actually, it's something that I think I heard from someone, it's also a protective mechanism for diversity practitioners, I can't care more than another person cares. I can't make you care about changing behavior, about improving the environment, the work environment, I can't make you care about that. I care, but I can't make you care, you have to want to. And if you don't, I don't want to make myself just so frustrated, or sick to the point of trying and like you said, some people, they're just not going to move. And I'm like, okay, that's fine, all right. I need to do it and continue to focus on who is open enough to say, you know what, I want to hear something different or new or yeah, I never thought about it that way because some people are just not going to be open that way. When it's like, alright, I can't keep banging my head against the wall or get stuck with those folks and be like, well, I'm a total failure, because no, I'm not. These people moved a little bit on the journey, so I’m not.
Nadia Nagamootoo 24:45
We've spoken a bit about that pigeonholing of people from certain characteristics. I mean, that's your whole life story, I suppose in being pigeonholed. This is what the expectations are of you Sheri, and don't try anything more. So how do we empower, because you mentioned don't take agency away from people. So how do you create allyship whilst ensuring that the agency remains with the individuals?
Sheri Crosby 25:11
I think I'm not telling people that I'm perfect at things because I have to be an ally in many different ways as well. And so I find I have to actively work on things, I think the first thing is, as soon as you feel those assumptions, biases, prejudices popping up, you have to be like, just recognize, it'd be like, nah, you gotta tear it down. Because then if you just let it go, you're gonna let it lay on top of this person and then that's how you're going to interact with them or you're going to apply it to this person when you don't even know them. That's some assumption that's built based on your experience, you have to peel that back, you have to just fight it back, you have to do this actively… I still do but there's people who they don't start to think this is an assumption, this is a stereotype, this is a bias or prejudice that I might have. This is not this person's experience, this individual, I don't know what their experience is because I just met them or I don't know them like that, it's work. I think if you start to get into that practice, I think it becomes automatic, that you're like, boom, get out of here biases, I'm trying to engage and connect with this person on a level and then I think that you kind of step back and let who they are come out, you don't apply that to them. Oh, you think this way? But it's hard, because that's how our minds work, that categorization. It is difficult, but I think when we just kind of pause and have that uncomfortable feeling, but I think once that becomes, if you do it, you do it, then it becomes habitual, to stop those assumptions and stereotypes dead in their tracks. But you have to keep doing it, doing it, and doing it.
Nadia Nagamootoo 26:53
Yeah, absolutely, that is part of the practice in our profession, right, to keep doing it and to support other people to have that stock mechanism in place and recognize it. So I'm interested in the retail industry, this is the industry that obviously you're in. In Fossil, what are the specific … because every industry seems to have different challenges for obvious reasons, there's sort of different demographics and diversity characteristics, and they get drawn to a particular industry. So what's going on in the retail industry in the DEI space?
Sheri Crosby 27:25
I think that especially right now, the most important people in the retail industry, I think, if you ask me, the ones who interact with customers, if you have a physical store, and some of the challenges that they face, just dealing with individuals, whatever may be going on in the world, how they have to interact with people. And the challenge is how do you protect them? How do you empower them? How do you give them the tools to live and share those DEI values that a company espouses? I think a lot of retailers are working on that.
Nadia Nagamootoo 28:07
So shop floor level, people who are interacting directly, because you've got corporate, haven't you sort of like who sits in head office or whatever you're doing the doing behind the scenes, and then you've got those people who are on the frontline meeting those customers.
Sheri Crosby 28:21
Right. I think that is really important in the DEI space right now, with respect to like retailers that have storefronts and people who are out. I know, recently, Sephora came out with the racial bias study that they did, if anybody wants to read it, I haven't read all the way through it. but I know they did an in-depth study about and it was about how workers interact with customers, and how workers are treated based on their characteristics.
Nadia Nagamootoo 28:50
It goes two ways, sort of how to upskill the individual to be able to manage any bias or discrimination that comes their way, also you don't know who's walking into the store and what biases they hold.
Sheri Crosby 29:02
Exactly. So I think that's one of the bigger things in retail right now.
Nadia Nagamootoo 29:06
So what are you doing at Fossilaround this?
Sheri Crosby 29:07
I would say we're new in the journey, we are working on it. I know my part is to continually try to engage, it's hard because you know, retailers are all spread out there, they’re not here with me in corporate. That's a challenge, even beyond retail, any industry that has manufacturing, or people who are spread out like the workforce is very spread out. It's hard to connect up the DEI efforts with those individuals who are out because they're out there working, like they're not sitting in front of a computer like me, but that doesn't mean that we don't still try to include them in the best ways that we can, given whatever the work situation is. Sometimes that involves micro learnings, I've heard of companies doing that before where it's like okay, right before your shift begins, if you have team huddle, yeah, a little quick sharing on my micro-learning, or I know we have, it's almost like gamification if you will, on your smartphone, an app that you can go on and learn DEI topics. And so maybe if you have a little break in your work time you're like oh, let me look or not even a break, it is creating that space and time during the work day, so that maybe the customer flow has died down, you can go on and learn something in a smaller, like a captured moment in time.
Nadia Nagamootoo 30:28
So does that need to be compulsory then?
Sheri Crosby 30:28
I don't think you need to, because a lot of people do want to learn, they want to be involved. So I don't know that it needs to be like, you have to go and do this. It's like, if they have time, that's the thing they can do. If you're busy with a customer, or whatever the case may be, then maybe you don't have time to do it, but maybe you decide to say okay, I can learn this thing or learn about this particular community of people in this way, and that's on my smartphone.
Nadia Nagamootoo 30:56
Yes. I love that. I don't think it has occurred to me before, there is almost like a disconnect between those people who are at shop floor level in terms of what was going on in corporate. Who has accessibility to the e-learning platform every day, or you can take part in a virtual workshop or whatever, these people are out there their customers facing, when do they get their moment to be able to do this. So how do you create that thread down of this, is this the Fossil way, is this what Fossil stands for? Is that again, through those team huddle-type things?
Sheri Crosby 31:24
Yeah, I think it has to be, the communication has to come through their management. I know by myself, I can't get to all the people, the executives, they can't get to all the people, but you can try have messages that you cascade down through to them, and hope that it gets there. And obviously, we're not in person, I'm not like going to different places but to the extent that I can, I will. So for instance, I was just on a personal trip, where my husband's hometown is Detroit and I was like, I know, we have stores here, I want to go, you know, and I put my mask on. And I showed up and I talked to the employees, so it was to the extent that I can connect, I will in person, but that's hard, because you have hundreds of stores.
Nadia Nagamootoo 32:06
I'd love to see Sheri like rock up at every Fossil store around the world and go…
Sheri Crosby 32:10
I wish. I'd be like, I'm here and I'd pop up. So it's hard, but to the extent that you can have that personal interaction you do, but only to the extent that you can…
Nadia Nagamootoo 32:27
Then their management has to make sure that there's some cascade mechanism. So you say at the beginning of the journey, so what's the most sort of innovative or something that you're really proud of that you have implemented at Fossil in the DEI space.
Sheri Crosby 32:34
I think that it’s just trying to open up communication pathways, that to me is so important. So we have like an internal intranet, and you know, I put DEI topics and articles and things out there, and that's burgeoning. It starts off slow, but I know it can build up because I've seen it before. And then obviously, a lot of companies create spaces for employees to come and learn or to share. We've done that this year, we’ve created those spaces, and we call them Fossil group gatherings, and so they're virtual for now. That's fine. It's still a space for employees.
Nadia Nagamootoo 33:14
Anyone can drop into that, or is it a specific diversity characteristic?
Sheri Crosby 33:17
Oh, no, anybody.
Nadia Nagamootoo 33:20
Just as drop in session, come and talk.
Sheri Crosby 33:21
Yeah, anybody can come in for the ones that we've had. And like I said, they're learning opportunities, or sharing opportunities. So it just depends on what it is. And I think you should create those spaces, because then I think what ends up happening is, the more you build that up, and you build that muscle, people start to feel psychologically safe, to share things and to talk to their manager. Like, oh, we talked about this or, or the company, or whatever the case may be, just having that psychological safety. And I'm not saying I can fix everything, but sometimes, and we know it, just being able to talk through something is helpful, sometimes just being able to get it out is helpful. So I'm proud that we are creating those spaces. I'm also implementing what I call office hours.
So some people don't want to talk in a broad group setting, you know, they're like, no, I'm just gonna be quiet, there’s a lot of people on this call, or, you know, they don't necessarily want to talk in their team meeting, but maybe they want to talk one on one. And so I'm like, you know what, I know you can reach out to me anytime but what I'm saying on the office hours is, here's the time that I've set aside, I'm not going to put anything else on this time for people who want to come talk D&I, whatever it may be. Again, that's just another line of communication and I think like colleges and professors have that too, and I'm like, well, you can have it in the corporate space. And to me, it's a little different than saying, I have an open door policy because even when people have an open door policy, you never know like, are they busy right now, but if it's like I set this time aside for this particular activity, which is somebody to come and talk to me about DEI topics, whatever they may be, then that's different to me. And so we're going to be implementing that soon.
Nadia Nagamootoo 35:11
Talking about some of the journey that you've already been on. And so I know that Fossil group was named one of the best places to work for the LGBTQ plus community based on the Corporate Equality Index. That was last year. So are you able to explain how that came to be? So what work took place from a cultural perspective to mean that people from LGBTQ plus community feel like fossil is a place where they can work and feel accepted to work.
Sheri Crosby 35:38
So I will say I wasn't here that time but yes, and that wasn't even the only time, Fossil has received that award several years in a row. And so I think that's just a testament to the work that has been put in as far as policies and practices. And obviously, everybody can still continue to work and there's still work to be done but that's just a testament to what was already done before I even got here, that was recognized by them. So I think it's just trying to create that culture. And again, I always say that, because sometimes when we're talking as practitioners, some of the things that we say, it might feel like we've arrived, look what we did, and I'm like, no, I know that there's always still more work that we can do. And that's not to say that it's not great that we've achieved those things. I'm just like, that's good, and I know we can even do more and better and so that's where I kind of tried to look at it but I know that there have been practices in place. Like I said, before I got here, they have received it multiple years in a row.
Nadia Nagamootoo 36:41
Is there like an LGBTQ plus community or like an ERG or what do you have?
Sheri Crosby 36:45
Not yet. Not yet, because we're getting ready to start ERGs. And the way that we're going to start them is based on again, I'm big on listening to employees. And so we're going to see, which ERGs do employees want to start with? Which ones do they want? I Instead of me coming in and be like, we're going to start with these now. No, which ones do y'all want to start with? And then we'll take it from there. So we're in the process of determining which ones we'll start with.
Nadia Nagamootoo 37:12
That's really exciting. I say that your role sounds so interesting. It sounds like it challenges you every day but also, you have scope to apply some of the best practice that we know is out there. We know ERGs are successful, there's a power of networks that can really move and help create that dialogue, you were saying that conduit for voices to be heard, we know that ERGs are a good form of that. I love that your role can allow you to just go, ‘this is something that we can implement here’.
Sheri Crosby 37:46
I'm excited about what we're going to be doing in the years to come. I'm here at Fossil because just being able to move further along in the journey. And there's companies out there, they've been at it maybe longer than us, but I'm super competitive, I always like to do the very best. So I'm like, yeah, that's all right. We're coming on in here, you’ll be like my goodness, look at Fossil. That's right. We'll be like super pumped up.
Nadia Nagamootoo 38:12
To me, that seems to be a pattern and a story in your life, that from right at the beginning of our conversation, the story you told of do you know what? No, I don't need to let this box that people have put around me define who I am because I can do more, I can be more and I'm going to keep shifting and moving. And it seems that in everything that you apply that to. Now in Fossil, you're like no, who says that, let's do more? Let's do it. We could do it.
Sheri Crosby 38:36
Right? Let's be unique, like in our culture, let's be creative, let's lean into our values and just do DEI, you know, our way, and I'm excited to see where we go and what we do.
Nadia Nagamootoo 38:51
Yeah, so we've spoken a lot about, I suppose the ownership of where DEI lands, whether it's with the individuals from minority groups, whether it's with those people who are in power, for me, and certainly from what I've been hearing from you, it lies on both sides with everyone. Right? So how does an organization then, from your perspective, how do you create that collective action, that collective ownership? So every member of staff, shop floor and senior, right at the top of the organization that cascade, how do you create the collective movement that we need?
Sheri Crosby 39:28
I look at it almost like a snowball. Like it might start as like a bunch of different little snowballs. And there you have your strategy, your overall strategy, but that strategy is coming from all these different ways, all the different populations in the organization that you have to think about. and as you're working on the different group and department, you're doing the best you can. Simultaneously so that as it gets rolling over here, and it gets rolling over here and it gets bigger and bigger till after a while, you're gonna have this big old snowball that's just rolling. I think sometimes people don't see that, yes, it's picking up steam and all these little places they don't know, and they're like, nothing's happening. I'm like it is you that just can't see it because you're not looking at it in the bigger… you're looking at it maybe from where you sit, I'm trying to pull back and be like, Okay, we're working over here, we're going over here, we're going to connect this with that, and get that snowball going. And to me, I will feel like we've really made some great strides, and it's happening a little bit now but I want to see it a lot even in the teams, where the leaders are like, well, this is what we're going to do. They're taking it and they're like this are what we're going to do with DEI and here's what I think we can do and coming up with ideas on their own. To me, that's when you're like, yeah, and we have some of that now, I want more of it.
Nadia Nagamootoo 40:53
Oh, it's so exciting, amazing what you've achieved in actually a relatively short space of time, being at Fossil group. And I can see and I can hear big ideas and a lot of energy and passion from you. So I guess let’s watch this space at Fossil group.
Sheri Crosby 41:09
Yes, indeed, watch it.
Nadia Nagamootoo 41:11
I have absolutely loved talking to you, Sheri, thank you so much for sharing everything that you have from a personal perspective of your life, and how that's translated and driven you to everything that you do in your life. I know that we haven't even had a chance to speak of all the other stuff that you do outside of Fossil group. So that's the next episode with Sheri Crosby Wheeler. So for people who want to get hold of you, are interested in anything we've spoken about the work that you're doing. Are you active on social media? Where can they get ahold of you?
Sheri Crosby 41:42
Basically, on my favorite platform, LinkedIn. So some people who don't answer their LinkedIn or they're not on there, I'm on there, I go on there every day. So if somebody wants to talk to me, just reach out to me on LinkedIn and I will respond. Unless you're like, why these gold coins? I'm like, No, probably not but if it's DEI, then I'm gonna respond.
Nadia Nagamootoo 42:05
Fantastic. The link to everything Sheri and I spoke about today is going to be available on the shownotes page, in the usual place, Avenir Consulting services.com website under podcasts. Sheri, thank you. Thank you, thank you for everything and your time and sharing your insights, your life story, everything. I really appreciate your time.
Sheri Crosby 42:26
Well, thank you, Nadia for having me. I enjoyed myself immensely.
Nadia Nagamootoo 42:31
That concludes episode 15 of the Why Care podcast. Sheri’s philosophy in life is to always think it’s possible do more to go beyond expectations. As a DEI practitioner and leader in an organization, it's the perfect and only mindset for success. It really is a case of watch this space for more from Sheri and DEI at Fossil group, no doubt to come soon. Do let Sheri and I know what you thought of today's episode. You can find me on LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram with the handle at Nadia Nagamootoo and at Avenir consulting services. As always, I really appreciate your support of his podcast or leaving a review on whatever platform you're listening, and spreading the word by sharing it with your friends and family. Huge thanks as always to Mauro Kenji for editing this podcast and Jon Rice for supporting the show notes and getting it out there on social media.