Why Care?#27: Rose Cartolari- The Inner Work of Inclusive Leadership
“We need to be able to be so attuned to what’s going out around you. And the only way to do that in a stable way is by being rooted in the way you are. In really understanding…OK, is this me? This constant evaluating.”
In Episode 27, I am joined by Rose Cartolari, Founder and Director of RC Consulting, which specialises in Leadership Advisory and Executive Coaching, to discuss the inner work of inclusive leadership, primarily focusing on the importance of self-reflection and flexibility as a leader, and the dissonance between being a successful leader and an inclusive leader.
Rose’s interest in DEI is evident through her 30-year career journey. Rose has had experiences in management roles for large organisations such as American Express and UNICEF, and experiences teaching at elite business schools in the US and Italy, as well as co-founding and serving as COO of Scharper Pharmaceuticals SpA. Rose’s experiences has empowered her to embark on a mission to bring diverse voices into all spaces where decisions are made. To accomplish her mission in promoting DEI, she is a TEDx speaker, and a co-author of Winning Mindset and she serves on the Executive Committee of European Women on Boards. She also sits on the Advisory Board of DiverCity magazine and is a member of the invitation-only Forbes Coaches Council.
Upon exploring what DEI means to her, we speak about the importance of being an inclusive leader, such as the difficulties in balancing the intellectual friction between creating a culture of psychological safety and a culture that promotes freedom of speech, and the challenges technology and global ways of working bring to leaders in the DEI space.
As we explore in our conversation, there seems to be a disconnect in what is required from leaders - as an inclusive leader, it is important to show humanity and vulnerability to your employees, but as a successful leader, it is important to show competence. The difficulties in balancing these intellectual frictions are what is dampening the efforts of leaders to fully embrace diversity, equity and inclusion. Rose mentions that in order to help them overcome these difficulties, it is imperative that there is a renewed focus on empowering leaders, not on fixing them in the DEI space.
To finish our conversation, I ask Rose about how leaders can learn to embrace the inner work of inclusion. She believes it lies greatly on self-reflection, having that courage to take that step towards inclusion, receiving support and encouragement from others and leading with empathy. As such, leaders can then become someone who is reliable, trustworthy and influential, but it takes courage to make that step towards diversity, equity and inclusion. She finishes insightfully by saying that we should focus on ‘not carrying leaders but really coaching them, not fixing them but empowering them’. By doing this, we are taking a step further in promoting and perfecting the inner work of inclusive leadership.
Links:
Rose can be found on:
· LinkedIn at Rose Cartolari
· Twitter at @Rosecartolari
· Facebook at Rose Cartolari
For more from RC Consulting, you can visit their website at: https://rosecartolari.com/
For Rose’s publication on Forbes on ‘How to ensure results on Leadership Development programs’, visit: https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbescoachescouncil/2020/09/08/how-to-ensure-your-leadership-development-programs-give-you-the-results-you-need/?sh=3acc8de57889
For Rose’s TEDx talk on ‘Leaders, Know Thyself’ (in Italian), visit: https://youtu.be/kgKJylJWbAQ
To hear Why Care? episodes first, sign up to our newsletter here, and you can find more from us at Avenir via our LinkTree here
Transcript
Rose Cartolari 0:00
Of course, we like certainties, we don't like hearing, ‘I can be an incredibly talented CEO or a manager, and still not know this piece’. We don't like holding those two things together, we like to be competent, because otherwise, we're not competent. And the truth is, as you will know, leaders today, there's not one person that can possibly know all the variety of things we have to know today, just the change, the enormous changes in the world today, from technology to new generations, to global ways of working, and that's just not possible. But as leaders, I don't think we learn to say, ‘yeah, I know this piece, but here, I always need help, because I always go to my automated behaviour’.
Nadia Nagamootoo 0:51
Hi, my name is Nadia Nagamootoo, Business psychologist, coach, speaker and founder of Avenir consulting, which creates organisational growth and success by inclusion and diversity. We've been discussing the benefits that diversity brings to a company's bottom line performance for decades with more and more evidence, but there are so many questions organisations still have about how to achieve it. How do you create a culture where people feel valued for their uniqueness and the qualities they bring? I believe it's crucial to the future success and sustainability of every organisation that they find the answer to this question to make sure that each employee is not only supported but also appreciated. With this podcast, I aim to get some of the key challenges to creating inclusive workplaces out in the open and start uncovering the solutions to embracing a culture that cares for everyone. I'm going to be having conversations with some of the most inspiring people in different countries and across industries who are pushing the boundaries on inclusion and diversity in the workplace, from topics such as parenting in the workplace, ethnicity, age, gender, mental health, and all things inclusion. I want to create a movement to change society through sharing life experiences and creating more empathy and connection. Why care? I believe that once we have organisations and societies that accept and value everyone for who they are, we become healthier, happier and better in our roles both inside and outside work.
Hello, and welcome to Episode 27 of the Why Care podcast. My name is Nadia Nagamootoo, and I am your host. Before introducing this episode, I'd like to make a special request that you rate and review the Why Care podcast on your podcast player. This makes more of a difference than you may realise, and will allow more people to find the show and listen. In this episode, I speak to the inspirational leader and DEI practitioner, Rose Cartolari. Rose specialises in helping C-suites and their teams develop their leadership capacity, with a mission of bringing diverse voices to all spaces where decisions are made. She has worked for global corporates such as American Express and UNICEF, as well as Co-founding a pharmaceuticals company, which she then successfully sold. Rose is a TEDx speaker and co-author of Winning Mindset. She also serves on the executive committee of European Women on Boards, and has recently established their Board Readiness programme. We discuss the paradoxes faced by leaders in today's volatile world, and how this creates challenges when navigating the complexities of inclusion. Rose shares stories of her work with leaders, and how their willingness to deepen their understanding of self is so vital to inclusive practice. There is so much to gain from this episode. Enjoy. Hello, Rose, it is an absolute pleasure to have you on the Why Care podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today.
Rose Cartolari 3:37
Well, thank you for having me. I've been excited and looking forward to this. So, thank you.
Nadia Nagamootoo 3:43
I love your work. We've been in touch since earlier this year, actually not that long, but it does feel, because our work is so aligned, and we're both working in inclusive leadership space and DEI, that there's just something that connected us when we spoke, wasn't there?
Rose Cartolari 3:59
Yeah, exactly. And I think when you find people who have the same mission and goal, and are working for the same things, yeah, there's a lot of quick connections.
Nadia Nagamootoo 4:09
I know. I just feel like I've known you for a lot longer, but just for my own interest, but also everyone who's listening, just a little bit initially about your background, your career background, but also, how you came to work in this space of inclusive leadership and DEI.
Rose Cartolari 4:28
Yeah, of course, it's not your usual story. I have a business background. I have an MBA in marketing and management, and my first job out of business school was in marketing for American Express. I loved it there. And I had married an Italian man who I met in business school, and at a certain point we decided to move to Italy and start our own pharmaceutical business, where I was doing the marketing and sales, and he was doing all the legal, he had much more of a pharmaceutical background that I did. So, we started a company and we basically ran it for about 15 years, then we sold it. And I found myself in 2011, I was 47 years old, at the top of my career, I had everything I wanted, and nothing to do. So, I retired, and then I thought about, what was it that I wanted to do? Because it's a real gift at that point to be able to really choose with attention what you wanted to do. And it took me a lot of time, which unfortunately, a lot of people don't have anymore, to reflect, and I decided to go back to what was really my passion. So, I had been a teaching assistant in business school for what in those days was called, Group and Interpersonal Dynamics, because we didn't have coaching, we didn't have diversity, equity and inclusion, it was starting around then, talking about that. And I loved that, and I paid my way through business school doing that. And even while I was working, I would stay with the professor for whom I was assistant, and I would run seminars and workshops. So, I decided that's what I wanted to do. So, I went back to school, got certified, got my coaching degrees, did the whole thing, and I've been doing that for the last 11, 12 years, and I love it. I got into DEI because I naturally fell into it. A lot of my clients were interested in understanding specifically working on gender parity, and how can they accelerate women through the leadership positions? How to get them exposed, and ready for international work. And so, I got into it there, and then it just built from there.
Nadia Nagamootoo 6:35
And I love that story. I love that journey of, I mean, it's so typical, where you just… I didn't really set out to work in DEI, but it found me because there was such a need for it, and there were so many questions in organisations around, how do we do this? And actually, I realised that I had some tools to help them with some of the answers. What do you love about what you do?
Rose Cartolari 6:58
I love first of all that the basic premise of who I am and how I approach work, which is, that everybody has a share of voice, and in that million, we'll find the best idea. And I love that that's what my work is all about. Then, of course, you do have to put in processes and systems to make that happen, but I love the idea of, why we even do this work, why do we care about gender parity? Why do we care about cultural differences, sexual preferences and all of this stuff? Why do we care about that in the workplace? Well, we care because the solutions for tomorrow are not around, and we don't know where they're going to come from. And so, by definition, it's about being curious and listening, and I love that, I love people's stories, it's naturally me. So, I feel like I’ve found a job where I just get to be me, get to listen to people and ask questions, and find new and different kinds of ways of looking at things. And that's the crux of our job then, really. So, I find it stimulating, it’s an honour.
Nadia Nagamootoo 8:06
That resonates with me so much because, every day I'm challenged, every day I get the privilege of hearing people's stories, their views of the world, and to practice each day, my own calling out myself on my own judgments and my own biases. It's such an honour to work in this space. Definitely.
Rose Cartolari 8:27
And don't you find that it also gives you a sense of freedom? I find it liberating for myself. But I see a lot of my clients, specifically, the higher up you get, and you're now all of a sudden responsible for implementing, whether it's quotas, or D&I systems, or whatever the KPI is for the board or for the organisation. When you have that open discussion and you really engage with, why are we doing this? Why does your business care? And what is the heart of what you do? We don't need some big complicated issue to resolve, we need to just figure out, how do we make it possible for diverse voices, different perspectives, to have a place where they can on an intellectual level, just ping and bump into each other without having all the social friction? I mean, that's in essence what we do, when it's put in those ways, I just feel almost a sigh of relief from so many people, just like, ‘yes, that I can get behind’.
Nadia Nagamootoo 9:32
Yeah, absolutely. Because it isn't easy, working in diversity, equity and inclusion as a leader in an organisation is messy, it’s really complex. Let's just unpack that a little bit more, because, what do you think of the complexities that make DEI so hard?
Rose Cartolari 9:52
Well, I think we've approached it incorrectly. I think what we've done is, we've said okay, ‘DEI is stuff about people, so I've got an HR group, let me task them to figure out ways, and we can get our numbers looking better. We need more women; we need more representation.’ And I'm not saying that people don't care about actually doing it, but I think it's a numbers game, it's just about, how do I increase representation? But the truth of the matter is, what we do is we see a lot of organisations investing so much in DEI programmes, and putting in all of these programmes and processes. So, what ends up being transformed are processes, but not necessarily behaviours, or outlooks or mindsets, which is the actual point of DEI. So, I think we really need to figure out and go back to basics of, in what ways will diverse thinking voices representation drive our key business strategy? Where is it that we want to be tomorrow? And what are the missing pieces that we can't even know yet that can help us to get there? So, we're not focused on the short term, move this move that. I mean, I'm not saying we don't have to do it, of course, we have to do it, but the idea is that, this is part of a business strategy, I don't know where I'm going to find my answers, I, as a CEO, as a leadership team, need to make sure that I've got an organisation that is able to allow different ideas to pop up, fertilise and grow, and that I have the organisational listening to recognise that even if it's in a form that I don't understand, you know, to pick up these weak signals, and then bring it out there. And that's not easy work, that is not a quick, I got her to deliver results today kind of work. So, we get entangled into that.
Nadia Nagamootoo 11:56
Definitely, as you were saying that there is something here around, we're asking leaders to allow new voices, different voices, different views, and embrace a different conversation, but at the same time, we're saying, ‘but you need to be able to call out or call in exclusionary behaviour. So, you need to stop voices that aren't inclusive.’ And I have been challenged on this one before, as you're saying, ‘be inclusive and open to all views’, but if that person is talking about their racist views, what do you mean by that? Because surely that's not okay. What do you say to that mixed message that some people might see in the work that DEI involves?
Rose Cartolari 12:41
So, we're talking about psychological safety here, we're talking about, how do we create an environment where it's safe for people to speak up, but not okay for people to hurt or insult or exclude somebody else? And actually, to my thinking, I think this is where it's this balancing of intellectual friction. So, here's the problem, where's all the thinking around how do we solve the problem, versus minimising the social friction. So, name-calling social argument, admittedly, that's a very, very fine line to draw, but organisations that I've seen, I have a client that they're very good at it, and their CEO keeps saying, ‘Well, my job is not to have anybody never to say anything offensive, my job is, when somebody says something offensive, is to make sure we have an organisation that will say, ‘hey, Nadia, why did you say that? I as an XYZ find that really, belittling’. And it's okay for me to say that, and I'm comfortable saying that. And Nadia then can say, ‘Oh, well, it's because of this’, and we enter into a dialogue.’ So, it's not necessarily that you are not permitted ever to say this.
Nadia Nagamootoo 14:03
Yeah. And then that's it, isn't it? Because if that breeds a fear culture, if that is the case, and I hear a lot of, what if I say the wrong thing? What if I enter into a conversation and that person takes it the wrong way, I then stumble and I don't know what to do, and then I'm accused of being racist, sexist, homophobic? There's a huge fear. So, what you're saying is, unless the organisation as a culture can handle those situations in a constructive way. Yeah.
Rose Cartolari 14:33
Yeah. And by the way, that's also how you change minds, nobody ever changed their minds because they were scolded into it, or shamed into something, right? Maybe you might, but usually people will change their minds because it's somebody that they know to have their best interests at heart, and are actually genuinely engaging in a conversation. So, I know somebody said something about, ‘oh, those people’, and I can't remember which group of people he was referring to, ‘are all lazy’, and somebody literally piped up and said, ‘Wow, that's not racist, is it?’ And the person who said it then said, ‘Oh, do you think that's racist? Why would you think that's racist?’ So, something that everybody else heard, or something this person didn't. And so, when they started to get in the conversation, they're like, ‘Oh, I'm mortified, in my house, this is how we talk about it, I had no idea’. So, there's a much bigger chance that that person's viewpoint is changing because the organisation and that team and that group thought it was okay to say that without it berating somebody.
Nadia Nagamootoo 15:35
Of course, or walking out the room and talking to other people going, ‘Oh, my goodness, I can't believe he did that, or she said that’. Yeah.
Rose Cartolari 15:42
This is I think one of the key skills in DEI work, how do you disagree without denigrating? Well, we haven't cracked that code yet, not just in DEI, in the world.
Nadia Nagamootoo 15:55
I know, we could go into a whole conversation on politics here, but let's not. I'm interested in some conversations that you've had with leaders that give examples or highlights where they get stuck with working in this space.
Rose Cartolari 16:12
I think the biggest thing is, people agree with this intellectually. I've never found anybody who doesn't think that diversity is a good idea, and that doesn't think there should be gender parity, and that LGBTQ should be treated (fairly?). The issue is that we understand intellectually the concept of biases, and understanding, it's easy for us to see others, it's very difficult for us to see our own. And so, one of the primary problems that I deal with, especially with large organisations, and I deal a lot in the finance sector, in the sciences, so these are very heavily male, very science-driven, getting some of these softer ideas that take a longer time to develop is a little harder, what I hear is, ‘yeah, please work with my team to get them here’. And I'm like, ‘Well, I think we maybe need to start with you. Where do you see yourself in this picture? What is your role to play?’ ‘Oh, no, I'm good, I get it, work with my team.’ So, then you work with the team, and then we hear things from CEOs, from Managing Directors that say, for example, again, I work a lot in gender and gender parity, so we've worked on the succession, on finding the pipeline, getting people up for promotions, ‘oh, well, she's not ready’. She's not ready? Really? Is that about her? Or is that about what you think is ready? Or what, a male idea thinks is ready?
There's a group of five people, do you know what ready means, right? So, I think we're always caught there, we don't do that work on saying, ‘so why don't I think they're ready? What would that mean for me? And do I view women differently than I do, men? Do I tend to like this kind of person rather than that person? Why does that person irritate me? Why do I keep making the same decisions?’ Really getting into an analysis of myself. I think that's one of the biggest issues, because if it doesn't start there with those senior team, we won't hear it. Of course, we like certainties, we don't like hearing, I can be an incredibly talented CEO or Manager, and still not know this piece. We don't like holding those two things together, we like to be competent, because otherwise we're not competent. And the truth is, as you will know, leaders today, there's not one person that can possibly know all the variety of things we have to know today, just the change, the enormous changes in the world today from technology, to new generations, to global ways of working, and that's just not possible. But as leaders, I don't think we learn to say, ‘Yeah, I know this piece, but here, I always need help, because I always go to my automated behaviour’.
Nadia Nagamootoo 19:07
What you just said there, just rings so true to me, that binary way of looking at, either I'm good or I'm not good, either I know it or I don't know it, either people have told me that I'm a good leader, or they tell me that I'm a rubbish leader, you can't be something in between. And working in DEI is hard because you're in between, the whole time you're like, ‘Oh, I understand, I had that really powerful conversation, and I think I did that much better than I would have in the past, because I've learned xyz’. And then to walk into a different conversation and just to completely bomb it and go, ‘Oh, I could have done that so much better’. And to be able to hold the two, and to be able to recognise that I'm still a good leader, but I still have growth and more to learn.
Rose Cartolari 19:54
And the truth is, we have to hold, I think this world is all about holding space for opposites. I'm an extrovert, but I can also learn to listen to the quieter members of my team. It's not my type, because I listen to the people who take up the oxygen in the room, but I also have to listen to the quiet people, because maybe that's where my idea comes from. So, we've got this whole spectrum of our behaviours, ‘it's not always about me, I need to stay abreast of the market and politics and socio-economic dynamics, but I can't be hooked into it’. So again, that's a balance, ‘I need to connect on a personal level with so many people and show my humanity and vulnerability, but I also have to draw the line’. So, everything about leadership is this balance between these two opposites and balance in between these two points. And by the way, we have to do this at lightning speed, because that's what the market rewards us for, that's what our shareholders reward us for. And DEI and listening and creating space for understanding is not a friend of speed.
Nadia Nagamootoo 21:06
No, and it's not rewarded for in a traditional typical organisational system, success isn't measured on whether you took the time out to listen to a different perspective, success is measured on whether you achieved that goal, and the client’s happy or whatever. This speaks a lot to your TEDx talk, and also the chapter in the Winning Mindsets book on ‘leader know thyself’. So, talk to me a little bit about what you're saying in that chapter, and in your TED talk around, ‘leader know thyself’.
Rose Cartolari 21:42
So, I actually think this is the central point and the basis for all leadership today. Because in an uncertain world, that's increasing in uncertainty, and not improving, traditionally they call that VUCA, volatile, uncertain, complex and ambiguous, you really need to have a core that grounds you. And that core, is the piece that we have always as leaders considered our training, which made us get to where we are today, we were really good at what we did, so we got promoted, and we got promoted again, and then we were really good. And compared to all these other people, we got selected, and here we are leading the organisation. So, we're leaders because of our experience, and because of our knowledge. And some people actually also have the disposition, let's say, and the natural born ability to listen even to weak signals and things like that. But the truth of the matter is, this world today requires us even more than anything else, not to rely on our old experience, because nobody has experience for this world today, and the pace of change. So, we need to be able to be so attuned to what's going out around you. And the only way that you could do that in a stable way, is by being rooted in where you are, and really understanding, is this me, that’s constant evaluating? I mean a lot of leaders say, ‘Well, I do the 360s. I do them every year, or I do them three years.’
Okay, that's great, and that tells you some behavioural things. But entering into a conversation with yourself about really, what kind of listening do you bring? Do you have a propensity for one types of voice or messages? When the skill today is to be able to understand, listen, interpret, make sense of a huge variety of data, whether it's from people, whether it's from environments, whether it's from markets, and that will only happen, when you are very aware of what you already know, and what you already don't, you're constantly asking yourself. And I think we're at a certain age, and I'm 58 years old. So, for me, I feel like, oh, I look back, and there's so much I've done and learned and whatever, it's really hard for me to acknowledge that from here on out there's still a lot for me to learn, know and get better at. Of course, I know it intellectually, but I look backward and see how far I've come, we don't tend to look forward and see how far we've come. So, after a certain level, we're not doing that as much. And this is what makes that difference, because our employees need it, they want to see their leaders actively trying to reconcile and interacting with the world around them. And Amazon algorithm never stops, it says, ‘won't you buy this book? We suggest this book’. And if you say no, it'll come up with another book, and it'll keep changing based on your latest inputs.
Nadia Nagamootoo 24:49
I love that analogy. That's great. And what I also love about what you said is that, in a work, that often leaders don't carve out the time to do, but it's so important in order to lead in today's context, this isn't about, ‘you're no longer a good leader, and that you don't have the skills to lead’, because I think a lot of leaders can get by and do a good job leading without doing that deeper work. So, what is it that we are saying? What does it give them as an extra to do this deeper work?
Rose Cartolari 25:21
Well, I think it's a resilience question, it's a long-term question. If you consider leadership as being able to command, control and get results in the short to midterm, I absolutely agree with you. Truth of the matter is, because the world has changed so much, and quite honestly, because the new generations coming into the workplace have very different expectations as well, the work of leadership is no longer, ‘okay, I'm the most experienced, the smartest person here, everybody brings me information, I'll make decisions’, but it's really figuring out who the smartest person in a particular area is, and how do I get them to speak up? And how do I get them to bring out their best ideas? And how do I motivate them? And how do I inspire them? You've really gone from this me, leader centric model to inspire, push, motivate the others, and bring it out. So, I like to think it as the leader’s job now is to become a gardener. So yes, of course, you always want a beautiful garden, but now, what you've got is a rose that needs to be cared for in a certain way, and a pine tree which is completely different. And you've got all these different things, and the leader’s job is to really be aware of not only the different plants and flowers and their needs, but also, I tend to overwater, so I need to be really careful about not over watering there, or I forget about sunshine because I don't like sunshine, but that tree needs sunshine, whether it's a project, or a person, or a country, or a group of people or whatever.
Nadia Nagamootoo 26:59
Exactly. What a great analogy, another great analogy. And I can imagine a lot of leaders listening to this and going, ‘okay, I get it, I get the work in principle, but how do I do that?’ So, have you worked with leaders to help them develop that self-understanding?
Rose Cartolari 27:17
So, I actually am at a point in my business, where I actually won't accept a client, if the individual coaching is not part of it. And it doesn't have to be weekly coaching, I'm not saying that, but I believe that the CEO and the leadership team sets the pace and models for the rest of the organisation. I've worked too many years in too many projects where we say, ‘well, we'll build a movement, and we'll build a momentum’. And you probably can, but it's so slow, and you come out from that war, bloodied and exhausted. And so, I just don't do that anymore. I always now work where there is either team coaching, depending on how big or small the team is, but usually one to one. So, it's usually a mix, because as you know, there are so many different things around listening. So, it's not just understanding yourself, it's looking at the whole organisation, and there are tonnes of work there. I think you have to just overcome this, many leaders feel, ‘well, I don't need a psychologist. I'm good, I don't have any problems.’ And so I think this is a big misconception about the work that we do, not that some of it is not personal, and a lot of it is personal, but it's this idea of, how do I learn to have the mental agility? And how do I think through that? Yes, of course, you could do it by yourself, but it is accelerated and much more focused when there's somebody working with you specifically on it, who has the ability to do that.
So, I find that remarkable. I remember this CEO, and he was a fairly young CEO, I want to say about 40 years old, and he came from a school of super high end consulting firm, so he’s like, ‘I've done all the 360s, I know what I'm doing, I'm really good’. Anyway, we got to a point where he's like, ‘You know what? Everybody else is ready, my whole team is enjoying it, why don't we have just a few conversations? No coaching, let's have a few conversations.’ And we started with his old 360, from there, we just got into this conversation, he's like, ‘oh’, and he just started to do things like have breakfast coffee mornings that anybody from his organisation could attend, either online. And all of a sudden, in the suggestions box, the number of people who were coming to him with ideas, the numbers. I mean, just from an innovation standpoint, the new market ideas, the new inputs that people had just gone up from silly, small, little things, because people have the idea, he didn't think he did, that he was so distant, and he was such a smart guy, he knew all the answers. But having these one on one meetings, I think they're a fairly small organisation in Italy that were maybe 200 people. So, he was able to do that, but it was just that small mindset where he's like, ‘Oh, I think I'm part of the problem’, and then there you see the impact. Again, and that was just the tip of the iceberg, it was just such a small little thing, then you decline that out into all the other activities, it makes a huge difference.
Nadia Nagamootoo 30:37
It does. What I find most challenging, and I'd love to hear your perspective on this, is, in order to be an inclusive leader, having the open mindedness to challenge yourself, to recognise and to hear those voices, and to go ‘oh, it could be me actually, maybe there is something more that I could be doing here’, requires courage, firstly, because we all have this very clear understanding of who we are, what we stand for, what we do. I hear so often, ‘I treat everyone fairly and with respect, I don't think you can ask for much more from a leader. Everyone tells me that that's how I operate.’ So, they're getting confirmation. So, it's really hard to get leaders then if they're in that more fixed mindset of who they are as a leader, what they stand for, their values, to get them to be open to seeing that, it's possible they may be acting in a way that's counter to that sometimes. And I'm interested, have you worked with leaders where it's harder to shift them away from that fixed mindset of, they're really saying, ‘Well, I know myself, and I know that this is how I am. And I find it hard to think that I could be anything else.’ And what do you do with that?
Rose Cartolari 31:53
If I found somebody who said that, to me, that's already a degree of self-reflection. Unfortunately, I’ve had people saying that, I've even had people, for example, we use a diagnostic tool, so whether it's a 360 or whatever it is, the focus groups, I can almost always tell people who are going to have an issue with the data. That is the biggest reaction I get for people who are just not going to have any of it. They're like, ‘well, this data is not right. I wonder if you talked to the right people. Are you sure you corrected that? Maybe they didn't understand the situation? Let me give you the context. No, but this must have come from so and so.’ And then the whole long reason. So, what I see is people attack the data. And there's always that, instead of saying, ‘I just don't recognise that, it doesn't sound like me.’ ‘Well, do you have any feedback on what was it that made people think that? What were the stories that they were using?’ Because you don't have to agree with feedback, but it's just that curiosity of where to go.
Nadia Nagamootoo 33:00
Any tips or advice when you're working with leaders? Because there might be CEOs or senior leaders who have colleagues who maybe they are feeling has that approach, where no matter how many conversations, their desire to create an organisational culture of inclusion is dependent on people particularly at the top of that leadership team, to be able to embrace and be open-minded to that inner work, right?
Rose Cartolari 33:26
Yeah, this is the big question, because I don't think there is an answer. Because in the end, you just have to be where people meet you, and some people are not going to change. So, depending on the size of the organisation, if it's a big organisation, and of your senior-most leaders, there's a percentage that won't change, that's okay, because change is going to come anyway. Because, as I said, it's not just one initiative that goes, it's a push, it's a pull, it's a huge programme. However, if that one person is a CEO, first of all, I'm usually called in because a board will call me in, in that situation. And so, then the CEO actually has an interest to understand, why is it that the board wants somebody to come and check on me? And so again, then you're dealing with, it's not just having the courage to face it, but it's also our defences. As human beings, we want people to say, ‘good boy, good girl’, we want that school teacher in our head to say, ‘Oh, you got an A+ sweetie’, especially, the more you've worked and the more experienced you are. So, it's hard, but I think a lot of the work is just staying with empathy and saying, ‘Yeah, I get this. Yeah, I get this.’ I still would be curious to understand, why would people say such a thing of such a wonderful person, of such a knowledgeable person? Stay with them there, and sometimes you can do some things and sometimes you can’t. To me, the only answer is then you become a person that's reliable, trustworthy and influential. Because again, who changes people's minds, right? We go to the people we trust, who have our best interests at heart.
Nadia Nagamootoo 35:07
Yeah, this speaks so much to the book that I know you know I'm writing called ‘Beyond Discomfort’. And I'm asking all of my guests now, what has been the most uncomfortable thing that you've had to manage in yourself, address or even a conversation that you've had to have as a DEI, professional, or a leader?
Rose Cartolari 35:30
Well, I wish I could tell you that I don't have this problem anymore, but my background, and my training are to fix problems. I see a problem, I'm really good at fixing problems. I really struggle with not fixing but working to empower. I sometimes literally sit on my hands and stay with the question, because it's just not useful to just tell somebody what to do. Well, you know, you and I do the same work, but the professional piece of me just wants to get there and say, ‘Okay, here's what you got to do’. So, I really struggle with not carrying somebody else but really coaching them, not fixing but empowering.
Nadia Nagamootoo 36:18
And isn't it? Because, we're both qualified coaches, we've done the work to coach, and yet, there is still that, ‘Oh, I know what you need to do’.
Rose Cartolari 36:30
I mean, quite honestly, my husband and my children would say the same. So, it's not just a work-related problem, it's really just an approach, probably a mum’s approach to life.
Nadia Nagamootoo 36:40
Yeah. Something to work on as a whole. Absolutely. Yeah, I hear that. Thank you so much for sharing everything that you have, Rose. I have so many more questions for you, but we are really out of time. If anyone is interested in getting hold of you, are you available on social channels?
Rose Cartolari 36:58
Yes, absolutely. On LinkedIn, on my website, which is just rosecartolari.com, and as I said before, I love to engage with people. So absolutely.
Nadia Nagamootoo 37:08
Yeah, absolutely. Well, the link to everything that Rose and I spoke about today is going to be available on the show notes page, avenirconsultingservices.com, under podcasts. Rose, it's just been an absolute pleasure speaking to you today. And thank you for sharing everything that you have. I've really appreciated it.
Rose Cartolari 37:28
You know I love discussing this, and I love speaking with you, we always have great conversations and exchange of ideas. So, thank you for having me on.
Nadia Nagamootoo 37:37
That concludes Episode 27 of the Why Care podcast. I love Rose’s analogies, in particular, that image of leaders becoming gardeners and learning what each plant and tree needs. Do let Rose and I know what you thought of today's show. You can find me on LinkedIn, Instagram, and Twitter, with the handle @NadiaNagamootoo. As always, I really appreciate your support of this podcast through leaving a review on whatever platform you're listening, and spreading the word by sharing it with your friends and family. Huge thanks to Mauro Kenji, for editing this podcast, and Glory Olubori for supporting with the show notes, and getting it out there on social media.