Why Care? #9: Sean Betts - Neurodiversity & Mental Health
“The world is set up for neurotypical people and when someone who is neurodiverse tries to fit into that neurotypical world, that can create a lot of stresses and strains on them mentally, that then manifest themselves in kind of broader mental health issues. That is not to say that everyone who is neurodiverse has a mental health challenge as well, but there is a very strong correlation between the two.”
In this episode Nadia talks to Sean Betts, Managing Director at Annalect, the data, technology and analytics company within the Omnicom Media Group, who looks back at a highly successful career in the media industry. He discusses his experience of burn-out, depression and anxiety and describes what happened after his return after having time off for mental health reasons.
On a mission to break the stigma that people with mental health problems and neurodiversity face in the workplace, he has since not only been a vocal advocate and public speaker on the topic, but also created a storytelling and support site and organisation for the neurodivergent community and for those who have experienced mental health issues: MiHND.
Sean explains what neurodiversity is and the challenges neurodiverse people are facing in the workplace. He highlights the benefits for organisations when hiring these individuals and how these efforts need a different approach in the recruitment process. Finally Sean leaves us with valuable advice for organisations and all of us, to get more comfortable in being uncomfortable and practice more listening and learning, as stigma comes from misunderstanding.
Transcript
Sean Betts: 00:00
The world is set up for neurotypical people. And when someone who is neurodiverse tries to fit into that neurotypical world, that can create a lot of stress and strains on them mentally, which then manifest themselves in broader mental health issues. And that's not to say that everyone who is neurodiverse has a mental health challenge as well, but there is a very strong correlation between the two.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 00:27
Hi, my name is Nadia Nagamootoo, a Business psychologist, coach, speaker, and founder of Avenir Consulting, which creates organisational growth and success through inclusion and diversity. We've been discussing the benefits that diversity brings to a company's bottom line performance for decades with more and more evidence, but there are so many questions organisations still have about how to achieve it. How do you create a culture where people feel valued for their uniqueness and the qualities they bring? I believe it's crucial to the future success and sustainability of every organisation that they find the answer to this question to make sure that each employee is not only supported but also appreciated. With this podcast, I aim to get some of the key challenges to creating inclusive workplaces out in the open and start uncovering the solutions to embracing a culture that cares for everyone. I'm going to be having conversations with some of the most inspiring people in different countries and across industries who are pushing the boundaries on inclusion and diversity in the workplace, from topics such as parenting in the workplace, ethnicity, age, gender, mental health, and all things inclusion. I want to create a movement to change society by sharing life experiences and creating more empathy and connection. Why care? I believe that once we have organisations and societies that accept and value everyone for who they are, we become healthier, happier, and better in our roles both inside and outside work.
Hello, and welcome to Episode 9 of the Why Care Podcast. My name is Nadia Nagamootoo, and I am your host. What are the underlying causes of the UK’s declining mental health? And how does organisational culture play a role in this? Why is it still challenging to talk about mental health and neurodiversity? And how can we create the language to have open conversations about it? These questions and many more will be answered on today's podcast when I speak to my guest on the show, Sean Betts, Managing Director of Annalect, part of the Omnicom Media Group. He has lived with depression and anxiety all his life and in 2017 experienced burnout. Since then, he has been openly talking about his experiences. He has a mission to destigmatize mental health and neurodiversity, and in doing so he founded MiHND, a platform that brings together people’s stories on all things mental health and neurodiversity. Together, we speak about the relationship between neurodiversity and mental health, the barriers to organisations recruiting neurodivergent people, and the business case for creating a more inclusive and diverse workplace. I'm in full support of everything Sean is working on in this space. It seems like a long, uphill journey toward destigmatisation, and his work is truly inspiring. Sean, it's an absolute pleasure to speak to you today. Thank you so much for joining me on the Why Care Podcast.
Sean Betts: 03:12
No problem. It's a pleasure to be here.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 03:14
I just remember thinking when I first met you and heard your story, how refreshing it was to come across, not just a man talking openly about mental health issues, the personal mental health issues that you've had, but also a senior person, someone who's worked for a global technology company in a very senior role, which is rare, I think. And I was curious if you might be able to tell us, how did you come to be on that path?
Sean Betts: 03:40
It's a great question. I guess it's reflective of the journey I've been on personally over the last 3 or 4 years. So originally, it stemmed from me having burnout from heightened work-related stress about 3 years ago and I took a month off work. And when I came back to work, I eased myself back in, but I kept hearing from lots of people that I knew around the business about how they'd been through similar experiences themselves. And all that did was just make me a little bit frustrated that I didn't know that at the time, and I didn't have someone to be able to talk to about it and someone who I thought would be able to empathise with me a little bit. So, I promised myself very quickly after I came back from work that when I felt ready, I would start talking about my experience, so lots of other people would know that I had been through that experience and that I was there to be able to talk to people who had similar challenges that they were facing but also really to just start to try and make mental health issues a bit more of a topic for conversation across the business as well. That's really why I came to that point.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 04:50
So impactful hearing you talking about it. I'm intrigued, as you were talking, you mentioned that suddenly after you returned to work, people started sharing this with you. What do you think was going on there? Why weren't personal stories shared with you before? Why didn't people feel that they could before, and then all of a sudden, they were? So, what was different do you think?
Sean Betts: 05:12
There has historically been a lot of stigma around mental health. And I think when you hear of someone that has been through that kind of experience if you have been through it yourself, that almost gives you permission to open up a little bit more because you know that you have got a friendly ear there that can empathise with what you went through. And I think that part of me going through that and being quite open with everyone that I've been through meant that anyone who had similar experiences then felt a lot more open and comfortable with talking to me about their experiences. And I think sometimes that's almost all it takes, just a little spark or a catalyst, and it can start to make everyone feel a little bit more comfortable about opening up a bit more and sharing their own experiences.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 06:00
It’s made me wonder, exactly what you said, everyone's experiences are very individual and are very unique. So, when we talk or we label things like mental health issues, do you think that's too broad a title? There's so much that falls under that category, it seems.
Sean Betts: 06:15
Yes, there is. Mental health is such a broad church, and there are so many different aspects to it. However, I think in a work setting, especially in the marketing and advertising industry that I work in, a lot of mental health issues that people face are going to be related to stress, and the outcome of that is normally around depression and anxiety. They're by far, the most broadly experienced mental health issues that people have. There is quite a bit of common ground, I think, to be able to share stories and to look at how we can support people better.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 06:52
Yeah. So, what is it about the work environment, particularly, you've got experience, obviously, in your industry, that provokes that level of stress, and therefore, aspects like mental health issues around depression and anxiety?
Sean Betts: 07:08
Yeah, so I'll start off with the work environment in general, before touching on the marketing and advertising industry more specifically. In general, over the last 10 to 20 years, we've seen people working longer and longer hours in the UK and we've seen an increase in the amount of time that people are connected to work as well. When people started getting Blackberrys, sorry, I'm aging myself there, 10 to 15 years ago, people always connected to their emails, and it meant that they had, or they felt an obligation to be available for work at any time. And now we're in a situation where people almost expect a response to an email within a couple of hours as opposed to what would have gone previously before Blackberrys were around and mobile phones were prevailing, where people would not necessarily expect to reply to an email for a couple of days. So, I think that that adds a level of stress that we just haven't had before. And with that, as well as the globalisation of work, a lot of industries are globalised now, which means that you have people working in different time zones, but not just that, working on different days as well. So over in Dubai, for example, people work on Sundays, but they don't work on Fridays. And so, when you're working with teams, and other people in different parts of the world, they have a different definition of working hours to the one that you might have.
And so, everyone ends up defaulting to working all the time. I worked for a big American advertising group, Omnicom Media Group, and that means that a lot of the people that I deal with are in the US, which means that my afternoons and evenings can sometimes be a lot busier than my mornings, just because that's when they wake up and they start their working day. So, I think those factors have really played into increased levels of stress across all industries. I think particularly in the part of the marketing and advertising sector that I work in, we're very much in a client service model. We're a service business and with that comes expectations from clients, rightly so if you're working for them, that you are available when you need to be available. And there are some businesses that require different types of availability than others. Retail is an incredibly fast-paced and regular cadence of work. You have to be available to be able to jump on short-term changes in strategy and to be able to address any issues that come up. And I think clients have taken more of a commercial approach to their marketing and pitches have become a lot more competitive and procurement-led. The requirements around the service have gone up as well and that creates a lot of pressure on the teams and agencies to be able to deliver that. And there was certainly a spectrum of clients in terms of how demanding they are and how available they expect their agency to be but I think just being in a service industry, per se, does add an extra layer of responsibility that you feel to those clients and your availability.
The last point I'd make as well, which I think is often overlooked, but is becoming increasingly important to talk about, given what we're currently going through with the Coronavirus pandemic is presenteeism. So, I think presenteeism has put a lot of pressure on individuals historically, where people have not wanted to be the first person at the door at the end of the day, and people wanted to be seen to be working harder and later so that they can get that pay rise, get that promotion and get up the ladder. And it's been very much a work hard ethic in order to progress in your career. And the other side of that as well is that people have not felt empowered to be able to set their own boundaries when it comes to presenteeism and hours of work. And I think that is starting to change quite a lot with everyone working from home at the moment, because we're obviously not present in the physical sense, we're all working remotely. And I know a lot of people, myself included, that have shifted their working hours and been very strict around that because they have got other commitments outside of work that they have got to attend to that are more important now like childcare and their child's education. So, I think there are lots of changes happening at the moment, for obvious reasons. And some of them I'm hoping will have a positive impact on how we look at some of the challenges we've faced in the workplace over the last 10 to 20 years when it comes to people's mental well-being.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 11:48
You raised so many good points there. My mind was spinning as you were talking because I was like, Oh, yes, I really wanted to build on what you were saying. And I think one of the things that I've noticed is that there's been an interesting distinction between different organisations and how they've responded to people working remotely and using virtual platforms. Some of these chief executives have been absolutely outstanding in some of their comms and messages that have gone out to people saying, look, we recognise that you have other things going on, particularly if you're a parent, and other caring responsibilities, like if you've got elderly relatives, whatever it is that's going on for you during this very difficult time, they are acknowledging that and saying, we're not expecting you to be on 9 to 5, that's not the expectation anymore, do what you need to do. That is such a strong message. And then on the flip side, I've heard stories, which just made me feel really despondent about progress when companies are still trying to enforce and say, well, okay, so I get it that you've got parenting responsibilities, but specifically, when are you going to be available, give us a specific time in the day when you're going to be able to do this and take calls and meet your deadlines.
And it’s just a very, very different way. So almost trying to maintain the presenteeism, but virtually and just really being uncomfortable with not having that level of control. And I do think that those people who had a supportive organisation through the lockdown, through the pandemic, will see a much healthier organisation as a result of it. I just think it's so short-sighted of organisations not to think about the impact on what's going on personally. And they might not know the details, and they might not know everything that's going on for their employees, but it's that level of understanding, listening, and empathy that has a massive difference, I think, in how people have responded to their company, but also personally in terms of how they pop out of the lockdown, and in terms of mental health and how they're feeling about it.
Sean Betts: 13:52
Absolutely, I think you hit the nail on the head there that there are organisations that are still trying to apply their traditional management approach to how they work with people through lockdown that is very much based on presenteeism and control, and not based on one of trust and outputs. And I hope that there will be so many examples of how a much more contemporary flexible management approach has led to not just a lack of decrease in productivity, but in some cases, an increase in productivity for the workforce. And that reinforces some of the studies and trials that have been happening globally, even before the pandemic around things like 4-day working weeks. And I think we will gradually see a movement in society to much more flexible working. And I don't mean that just in terms of a label that's placed on it and shifting your hours in one way or another, I mean truly flexible working where people can choose when and how they work as long as they are willing to commit to a certain level and quality of output, which is what work should all be about.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 15:02
We've seen mental health issues on the rise over the last 10, 15, 20 years, unfortunately, our mental health is deteriorating as a society. And I'm wondering, to what extent we need to continue pushing. So, I think mental health issues are much more prevalent in terms of talking about it, being more open about discussing mental health issues. We've had some amazing role models, actually, in the media talking about it, the likes of Stephen Fry and Prince Harry. I don't think we can call him Prince Harry anymore, but anyway, you know who I'm talking about, and people like you, your stories, personal sharing of what happened, and what you went through, and how you came out the other side, and actually how you on an ongoing basis, manage it. So, it feels like we've come a long way. But I'm curious, how far have we come and how far have we still to go in terms of organisations really getting this, offering the support that's necessary, and making those reasonable adjustments? What do you think?
Sean Betts: 16:03
Yeah, we have come a long way but I think we have got a long way to go still. And that's because like a lot of other diversity and inclusion areas, the topics are very complex, and you need to dive deep and really understand them better. So, I think on the surface, it is amazing to see so many people talking about mental health issues now. It is fantastic that people feel comfortable talking about their own issues. Also, I think, finding the language to have these conversations is one of the things that I think has really held us back as a society in talking about this. We just haven't had the words and the language to be able to express how we are dealing with our mental health. And that is becoming a lot easier to do as you see more people talking about it and you pick up on the language and you understand how to apply it to your own context but there is definitely more work to be done. From a cultural point of view, I think it's very much a mixed bag, you've got some organisations that have really lent to this and done some amazing work. And as you mentioned earlier on, there are certain businesses that aren't adapting and haven't embraced this and so, there are pockets of brilliance that are going on. And what we need to see is the whole sea rising around that. The other issue is that we're talking about mental health and we are in certain places putting in much better support mechanisms for people that suffer from ill mental health but the real challenge is starting to address the underlying causes.
And that is a much harder thing to do because that exists at a societal level, it's not necessarily something that is restricted just to one country or another, it touches on what we were talking about earlier in terms of how you work and presenteeism and the general stresses and strains of not just working life but everyday life as well. We are an aging population, there are a lot more people who now have additional caring responsibilities beyond children and elderly parents as well. Often those needs are exaggerated because we're much more geographically diverse than we used to be. So, there are lots and lots of different challenges and underlying causes for people's mental health challenges that are just going to take a very long time to understand and address because they are these big societal problems that we don't have answers for at this point in time. And I think we need to be okay with that. The worst thing that can happen is that we start to beat ourselves up about not making enough progress but I think that no matter how much progress we make, even if it's only a little bit, that should be celebrated. And we have to recognise that some aspects are much harder to tackle than others because they are more complicated. And that's fine, we should be comfortable in taking our time to be able to understand it better, and to try and come up with different approaches for trying to fix it.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 18:55
I completely agree. Everything you've said could be applied to any aspect of inclusion and diversity though. I was just thinking that, when you were talking, I was like, yes, absolutely but also, when it comes to issues of race and racism, issues of gender, and issues of sexuality, we have to be comfortable about exploring it and not having the answer yet, and that is deeply systemic. All we can do is open up dialogues and be open to listening, hearing, and understanding. For example, for myself, I haven't experienced depression or anxiety in my life, there are other things obviously that I have experienced but I find it harder to understand or empathise directly without that personal lived experience, right? But we're not asking people to have the personal experience themselves, simply to be open to walk in someone else's shoes, understand and be open to learning. I suppose it's more about, we're okay with that discomfort, that I don't understand you and I probably never will understand truly what you went through but I'm really open to learning and understanding what I can do to support you, as and when you might need it.
Sean Betts: 20:08
Yeah, absolutely. And I love that idea around getting comfortable being uncomfortable because a lot of the conversations that we should be having around all aspects of diversity and inclusion are going to be uncomfortable and we should be okay with that. And yes, there's a lot of listening that people need to do and a lot of learning that people need to do. My hope is that we take that further interaction and that we feel more comfortable trying to do things even if they fail because I think it is only through action and by trying things that we're really going to learn as a society how we can improve and take things forward.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 20:44
Yes. The other area, which we have to touch on is that you're also the founder of MiHND UK, alongside your MD role at Annalect, so goodness knows, and obviously a parent and all the other hats that you wear. But I really want to talk about MiHND UK, you say you're on a mission to destigmatise mental health and neurodiversity. I'd really like to talk a little bit more with you about neurodiversity. For those who are listening and may not understand fully the concept of neurodiversity and what it means, can you just explain it a little bit more?
Sean Betts: 21:19
Absolutely, the definition of neurodiversity is actually relatively straightforward. It's really just embracing the idea that people whose brains are wired slightly differently, is beneficial, as opposed to it being a ‘disability’. And it's something that's been around for 20 to 30 years now and it captures a lot of different neurological aspects of people's ability to learn. So, the most prevalent of those is dyslexia. A lot of people have dyslexia, whether it's diagnosed or not diagnosed, that's a whole other story. It covers things like ADHD, it covers autism, it covers lots of other aspects like dyspraxia and other learning difficulties that people have. And the whole neurodiversity movement is really about putting a positive light on it and saying that there are tangible benefits to people having brains that are wired slightly differently and not to think of it as something that is a disability or holds those people back at all.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 22:22
Hence, the stigma. So, the stigma around neurodiversity is that those people aren't normal and what value can they add? Because they're thinking, for example, with ADHD that they can't focus as well as people who don't have ADHD, and therefore, that it's more challenging to work with them. I mean, you're trying to de-stigmatise it, so what is the stigma around it?
Sean Betts: 22:44
The stigma is different for different people. It's similar to what we're talking about on the mental health side of things, that people's experience of something that is neurodiverse is a very personal experience. There's a saying in the autistic community that if you've met one autistic person, you've just met one autistic person. And I think the same can be applied to all the other things that fall under the neurodiversity umbrella because it's a very personal lived experience. And the stigma really comes from a place of misunderstanding, I think that is true for mental health as it is for a lot of diversity and inclusion topics. Most people's experience of neurodiversity is probably as a child at school, they know that some of their classmates might be dyslexic, and they get an extra 15 minutes in the exam, and that's probably the kind of extension they normally get. Also, they might have someone that they know, that's autistic. And again, autism is this beautifully wide spectrum, that again, is very individual. And so, one autistic person's experience and behaviours can be very different from another's. So, I think the stigma comes from that and is more often than not the outward appearance of those areas of neurodiversity that people have a grasp and understanding of because it's what they experience themselves. So, there are stereotypical views of what an autistic person is and they're actually based on male autism, not on female autism, which is very, very different, and normally based on the idea of a young male child being obsessed with train timetables.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 24:26
Right. Rain man, right?
Sean Betts: 24:28
Yeah, Rain man. Exactly, being incredibly good at maths. And there are these stereotypes that persist and that's where the stigma comes from. And it's not necessarily saying that it's coming from a bad place, it just comes from a lack of understanding and knowledge.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 24:43
Yeah, I think I just showed my age there. So, tell me more about MiHND UK because your mission is huge. How do you destigmatise that?
Sean Betts: 24:59
Yes. What we're trying to do is just to create a platform and a safe space for people to share their stories because I think it is by sharing stories and making that personal connection with the experiences that people have that really start to address people's knowledge and understanding of the areas and therefore start to break down the stigma around it. So, I set MiHND up about 18 months ago, and the plan really was just to start sharing stories from people in general and their experiences around anything that had to do with mental health or neurodiversity. And the reason why I wanted to focus on these two things was that my daughter diagnosed with autism a year or so before I started MiHND and I had spent a lot of time reading up about autism, through that, I read up more about neurodiversity, and started seeing more and more the links between neurodiversity and mental health. And the reason for that is predominantly, the world is set up for neurotypical people. And when someone who is neurodiverse tries to fit into that neurotypical world, that can create a lot of stress and strains on them mentally, that then manifests in broader mental health issues. And that's not to say that everyone who is neurodiverse has a mental health challenge as well, but there is a very strong correlation between the two.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 26:25
That's not something I was aware of, so this is really interesting from an organisational perspective then. What we're saying is that mental health needs and individuals that are neurodivergent have very distinct needs. The support you offer to one or the reasonable adjustments you make for one is not going to work for anyone else. So that can make it hard for people and organisations to know how to adjust or adapt. And it seems to me that one of the things that we're really good at is just going, ‘Well, I'm really not sure how to do this. So, let's just either avoid recruiting neurodivergent people, for example, into our organisation, so we just avoid the issue altogether or ignore what makes them unique. So, try and mainstream them and therefore not fully allow them to meet their potential.’ What are your recommendations to organisations, leaders, and people who are listening, how do you overcome this?
Sean Betts: 27:20
It's a really big challenge, I think. And it would be very easy for me to say that we just need to make sure that businesses can accommodate any individual's needs but as a leader of a business, I know that that's not practical. And actually, I think if we were purely having a conversation around workplace adjustments, I think we'd be in a very, very good place. The reality is that there is a severe challenge for people who are neurodiverse, even getting through interviews, and so not even getting an opportunity to be in the workplace and therefore require any workplace adjustments. And that's purely because we have a very formulaic and one-dimensional approach to recruitment. There is normally a vetting process that happens around CVs, that then goes to a shortlist who would be invited for an interview, which might be a telephone interview, it might be a video interview, might be a well back in the day, a face-to-face interview. And then that would be whittled down to a further shortlist. And then there might be a piece of work or a presentation or some critical thinking that would need to be demonstrated so that you can then really start to understand one candidate versus another and make the decision.
And the challenges for a lot of people with neurodiversity is that that approach and certain hurdles that you have to get over as part of that approach are really, really difficult. So, someone with autism might find it really, really difficult to make eye contact, for example. So, a face-to-face meeting or a video interview is a little bit harder for them. So, they're starting from further back in the process, they've got a challenge to overcome before they even get to the interview. And they’re often very capable technical skilled people who can bring a lot to an organisation. It's similar to certain disabilities as well. So, I worked with a lady for a long time who has a son with Down syndrome. And we have tried bringing people with Down syndrome into the business. And we found that they're very good at administrative tasks, and they actually really enjoy it and it gives them a lot of pleasure, whereas administrative tasks for a neurotypical person aren't always the most rewarding type of work to do. And so, there are lots of pockets I think of opportunity for us to think a lot more broadly about the types of people that we can bring in to really benefit different types of tasks and different areas of business. What we've got to do is to find out a better way to recruit these people because the current typical recruitment process doesn't really work.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 29:56
So, what would work? What are you saying organisations need to do in terms of adapting their recruitment processes?
Sean Betts: 30:05
So, there is no silver bullet because everything is slightly different. So, this is a hard challenge, one of the things we're doing and have been doing for the last year or so is working with a company called Auticon that works with autistic individuals. And what they actually do is they do placements where they have a book of autistic individuals that they have pre-interviewed and they know what their technical skills are, and the type of work that they're good at. And they will come and consult with you, in order to be able to place that individual in the organisation. They also will do a lot of hand-holding, not just for the individual but for the business as well to make sure that the right adjustments are made, they regularly check in with both the consultant and the business that's hiring them to see how things are going and really monitor that whole experience from both sides with a very high duty of care.
Now, that is a model, I think is very interesting. It's certainly a difficult model to scale because it is a very personalised approach with as I said, a high duty of care, but it does start to shine a light on a different way of trying to recruit people into a business. So if we have got a way of being able to objectively score and vet candidates based on their technical skills, if you're recruiting into a technical role, then that is probably a better starting point than the current one, which is very much focused around how someone comes across on a piece of paper and what their personality is like in an interview. I think we’re learning as we have to think about different lenses to look through recruitment as we're trying to think about how we can enable more neurodiverse people to come into the workplace.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 31:56
As I'm hearing you talk, I'm thinking, if I was a leader in an organisation, I think I get that it's the right thing to do, but that sounds like an awful lot of hard work to me. Why spend the extra money, for example, working with bespoke agencies who have a pool of autistic people, and have all of that in terms of being coached internally, and probably spend extra money to coach the individual when they're in and onboard them? What is the business case?
Sean Betts: 32:23
No, it's a great question. The business case is actually a very positive one. There are lots of examples, case studies, and research that have been done around the increase that you can get in terms of productivity when you start to employ people with a much broader diverse background. And that's specific to autism as example. And autistic people who have got technical skills are able to be a lot more productive because they are very focused and very single-minded about the tasks they are doing in general, which is a lot more productive. The example I shared earlier in terms of the Down Syndrome person within the workplace, they actively enjoyed the administrative tasks. So, you've got a very satisfied employee, whereas before, you might have had a neurotypical person doing that role, and they weren't fulfilled, they weren't satisfied and doing that role. And the other thing is that this is going to be hard work to start off with, without a doubt, because we're doing things for the first time, or we're doing things at a smaller scale.
And until we have got a lot of learnings under our belt, we've got a better way of managing it and better processes in place, it is going to be harder work, but long term, when you think about it, there are economies of scale, there are processes and experiences that will get better over time. And having people with different brains in an organisation is going to lead to a much higher amount of creativity, a lot more innovation, a lot more original thinking and ideas, and just bringing a different perspective to the table. And I don't think that that's anything a business in a competitive market can really shy away from at the moment.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 34:07
I completely agree. And I think that those organisations that are forward thinking enough to take the time and put the resource in because let's face it, I think we're asking organisations to do a lot these days and I can get why leaders might feel a bit overwhelmed. We're monitoring the gender pay gap and soon the ethnicity pay gap. There are lots of conversations about how to access a different talent pool even from a gender perspective. And now we're saying on top of that race, on top of that sexuality, on top of that disability, and on top of that, also neurodiversity, and all of them come with specialist recruitment agencies. I get how it can be overwhelming but those organisations that take the time, I believe, will reap the rewards in the longer term from what you were saying from an innovation perspective and from a commitment perspective in terms of their engagement of their employees and in terms of financially as well. But I get how in the short term, it's less appealing, with everything else that organisations have to deal with and think about, I get why some are reluctant to have these sorts of conversations.
Sean Betts: 35:16
Absolutely, I think sadly, it is that short-term thinking that prevents more of this from happening. Anyone who works in a publicly listed organisation will be very aware of the quarterly financial process and the reporting of numbers to the city that dictates a share price, which is what an organisation is really there to drive. And we need to start thinking about all of these challenges much more long term, not just in years, but potentially even decades for some of this to really make a difference. And when you are in an organisation where there is an average lifespan of a CEO of say five years, and they're focused on the quarterly numbers, you can totally understand why that leader might not necessarily want to take on some of the more challenging aspects of the role that aren't going to pay off in the short term. But if we're to move forward as a culture and society, those are exactly the kinds of challenges that we all need to be leaning into.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 36:13
Yes, and that will actually make that leader and that organisation distinct, that's what we're saying, and make them sustainable for the future. Any last words of advice to organisations in terms of if you were to pinpoint one thing even that they could work on in the area of mental health, neurodiversity, either or both, what would it be?
Sean Betts: 36:36
From a neuro-diversity perspective, it is definitely around recruitment, as I've talked about, I think that is the big challenge, you've got to make sure that your door is open to people with brains that are wired differently. And I think that is a big challenge. From a mental health point of view, I still think for most organisations, we're in a place where people want to feel safe sharing their own personal experiences. And it's very easy for an organisation to say that they are open to people sharing that, it's relatively easy for an organisation to give the right training to line managers so that they can handle the conversations that they might have with their teams around any mental health challenges. But I don't think you can underestimate the power of leaders standing up and talking about their own experiences to really give people permission and make them feel comfortable about talking about it themselves. And that, I think, is one of the most important things that organisational leaders can do at the moment. And whether that is mental health or something else, I think bringing your own personal experiences to your leadership role is really, really important because it makes you a much more authentic leader, it allows people to relate to you a lot more, I think, it brings the humanity into work that I think has been missing from a lot of corporate organisations for such a long time.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 38:01
That said so beautifully, and I couldn't agree more Sean. We’ve come to the end of our conversation, I'd love to know where the time has gone. It's been an absolute pleasure speaking to you. Thank you so much.
Sean Betts: 38:14
Thank you, it's been a real pleasure.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 38:15
So, for those people who are interested and might want to get hold of you, where can they find you on social media or other channels?
Sean Betts: 38:22
Yeah, the best place to get hold of me is probably on LinkedIn. My LinkedIn profile is just linkedin.com/SeanBetts, or you can drop me a note through the MiHND website, which is www.MiHND.co.uk
Nadia Nagamootoo: 38:39
Amazing. So, the link to everything that Sean and I spoke about today is going to be available in the usual place, that's Avenirconsultingservices.com, under podcasts, and we'll put all the links to everything Sean's mentioned in there. Sean, thank you once again for speaking to me and sharing your story and sharing all of your knowledge about mental health and neurodiversity. It's been a pleasure to speak to you. Thank you.
Sean Betts: 39:02
Thank you for having me.
Nadia Nagamootoo: 39:03
That concludes Episode 9 of the Why Care Podcast. I really hope you enjoyed our conversation and have learned something new about mental health and neurodiversity. I think Sean is spot on about the current organisational barriers to supporting, valuing, and including people with mental health issues and those who are neurodivergent. Do let Sean and I know what you thought of today's podcast show. You can find me on LinkedIn and Twitter with the handle @NadiaNagamootoo. As always, I appreciate your support of this podcast by leaving a review on whatever platform you're listening on and spreading the word by sharing it with your friends and family. Huge thanks to Mauro Kenji for editing this podcast and to Christiane Gross for supporting with the show notes.