Why Care? Special Episode: Elvin Nagamootoo - Leading Outside the Cookie Cutter
“There was definitely a level of expectation that you felt, I use the word pressure because that’s exactly what it felt like at the time. Some people thrive upon that and go forward, I rebelled – I did the exact opposite. My rebellious bit was to go ‘I don’t want to pursue academia anymore, I want to go and work, I want my own financial independence’ and not to choose the cookie cutter path.”
In this very special bonus episode of the ‘Why Care?’ podcast, I am joined by Elvin Nagamootoo, Head of Product at Shell Energy, and my cousin! Elvin discusses his spectacular career journey, success outside of academia, and how being labelled as a ‘problem child’ during education affected his life.
Elvin opens the episode by talking about his troubles during schooling due to being labelled as ‘disruptive’, his struggle with certain subjects and feelings of being misunderstood. His different way of thinking, approach to learning and interpreting the world was much later explained through his dyslexia.
But why persist to follow an academic path when the system just wasn’t designed for someone like him? Despite the pressure of his family, culture and society to succeed via an academic route, he decided to forge his own path and pursue the world of work rather than university.
His career path is one of the most unique I’ve seen, and he walks us through his various jobs like being a Christmas Elf, before finding one that clicked – being a British Gas Engineer. From here he has had a long and illustrious career, including being part of the initial team involved in setting up Centrica’s Hive business, before becoming its Global Head of Product, and now his similar role at Shell Energy.
This leads us to discuss his experiences of ‘onlyness’, both because of his diversity characteristics, and when he first joined an office-based role, after many successful years ‘in the field’ as an engineer, and feeling like misplaced. He talks about how these feelings made him second-guess his career choices before he gained confidence in himself. These ‘sliding doors’ moments continue to impact his life and shape who he is.
We then talk about how his intersectional experiences of his identity and career path have affected his leadership style to become one that is inclusive, empowering and understanding of his colleagues. We close the episode by discussing our hopes for our children’s experiences of working in the future.
Links:
Elvin can be found on LinkedIn here.
For more on Shell Energy, visit their website at: https://www.shellenergy.co.uk/
For more on Hive, visit their website at: https://www.hivehome.com/
For information and resources on Dyslexia, visit: https://www.dyslexia.uk.net/
To hear Why Care? episodes first, sign up to our newsletter here, and you can find more from us at Avenir via our LinkTree here.
Transcript
Elvin Nagamootoo 00:00
It's tough, but there are some people out there who perhaps don't feel that you've earned your right and your seat at the table. And that's something that I've learned it's not my problem. That's their problem that they have to deal with. I can only show and demonstrate what I can do. I have nothing to prove to them. I've done all of that hard work now. And I think that mindset is changing. I don't see it or recognize it as often as I once did. But that was a big learning curve for me. I look back on it and I don't really think about it very often, that was actually quite a painful time, it was very sad at that period of time. I questioned whether it was the right thing to leave the field. I was very comfortable with my role there. But actually, making that transition was difficult because I guess people were prejudiced against me in a number of different ways, but it's from an intellectual superiority or because of my ethnic background.
Nadia Nagamootoo 00:48
Hi, my name is Nadia Nagamootoo. Business psychologist, coach, speaker, and founder of Avenir consulting, which creates organizational growth and success through inclusion and diversity. We've been discussing the benefits that diversity brings to a company's bottom-line performance for decades with more and more evidence. But there are so many questions organizations still have about how to achieve it. How do you create a culture where people feel valued for their uniqueness and the qualities they bring? I believe it's crucial to the future success and sustainability of every organization that they find the answer to this question, to make sure that each employee is not only supported but also appreciated. With this podcast, I aim to get some of the key challenges to creating inclusive workplaces out in the open and start uncovering the solutions to embracing a culture that cares for everyone. I'm going to be having conversations with some of the most inspiring people in different countries and across industries who are pushing the boundaries on inclusion and diversity in the workplace, from topics such as parenting in the workplace, ethnicity, age, gender, mental health, and all things inclusion. I want to create a movement to change society by sharing life experiences and creating more empathy and connection.
Why care? I believe that once we have organizations and societies that accept and value everyone for who they are, we become healthier, happier, and better in our roles both inside and outside work.
Nadia Nagamootoo 02:15
Hello, and welcome to a very special episode of my Why Care Podcast. My name is Nadia Nagamootoo and I am your host. In this episode, I get to share childhood stories and learn from my inspiring cousin Elvin Nagamootoo, Head of energy products at Shell Energy Retail. What I love about his story is that as a senior leader, he doesn't have the usual academic accolades to his name. His story is one of self-belief determination and his trial-and-error approach to finding his way. A once labeled disruptive child, very few would have picked him as the person who would be one of the great minds behind the innovation and success of Centrica Hive product. He talks about his dyslexia and how his neurodiversity often wasn't well received. But for sure, it has been a huge contributor to his success, being the only one has followed him through his life. And Elvin generously shares the impact of this so authentically as we speak. I know his story will resonate with so many and inspire through seeing that if you push through the bias, anything is possible. I love chatting to Elvin, we chat all the time. And yet, these are the sorts of questions that rarely get asked in close family relationships. Elvin is a role model for inclusive leadership, it has developed through his life experiences, and is very much from the heart. Enjoy.
Nadia Nagamootoo
Elvin, I am so happy we are making this happen. I have wanted to speak to you for a long time and actually had to pluck up the courage to ask you whether you would be a podcast show guest of mine because obviously you're a VIP guest for me. You are one very, very special cousin. And I am very honored that you've taken the time to speak to me. So thank you.
Elvin Nagamootoo 03:59
Oh, thank you. Welcome. I hope I live up to that.
Nadia Nagamootoo 04:02
So I really want to start by, I guess, giving people a sense of why I felt it was so important to speak to you and to hear your story. And I think as I reflect on us as children, because you know, we grew up together, we spent a lot of time with each other when we were little. My recollection of you is a child that just had a lot of energy, you were quite unpredictable. I think unpredictable, was probably the word that I would use to describe our relationship, but also you as a child in the most loving sense by the way, obviously, I love you very much. But there were a few people who lived in fear of you and that unpredictable nature, I would say. And I know that at school, there was also that element of disruption. You were a disruptive element of the classroom. And so, I guess I'm really interested, when you look back at your younger self, like what do you think contributed to you being who you were at the time?
Elvin Nagamootoo 05:00
Now I’m just thinking you brought me on here to embarrass me. But I guess casting my mind back not that many years ago, I suppose there were probably a few kind of key characteristics that may be defined who I was at that particular time. So, I grew up as the only child, in a fairly modest home, we lived in a suburb of South East London, and you recognize some of these characteristics from quite a young age. I struggled with attention, and focusing on things, I was quite disruptive, and I was very playful. And I think that's partly because I was an only child. So seeing other small people of similar age, I wanted to play rather than kind of focus and study. And that was all the way from I think, through nursery, which I actually got kicked out for being slightly boisterous.
Nadia Nagamootoo 05:46
I did not know that.
Elvin Nagamootoo 05:47
Yeah, my mom wasn't happy.
Nadia Nagamootoo 05:49
What did you do?
Elvin Nagamootoo 05:50
Yeah, I was probably too young to actually remember, but apparently, I bit a child, I would like to think of it as a gentle nibble, rather than a full-on bite. But apparently, it was frowned upon. By then, it's not a good thing. But I think there was probably a slightly different dynamic happening in the background as well, that maybe it was discriminatory against me. So I would have been one of the few ethnic minority people within that area at that time.
Nadia Nagamootoo 06:15
I remember my eldest daughter coming home from nursery and she'd been bitten. And whilst obviously, the nursery was very apologetic, it wasn't something that they would expel a young two-year-old for. So it does seem very extreme.
Elvin Nagamootoo 06:29
It was quite hard. But it's one of those things right? At that time, you know, as a child of the 80s, things were slightly different then, I think society was at a very different pace.
Nadia Nagamootoo 06:38
For me, the fact that actually that story still stays with you, whilst you can't remember all the details of it, actually, you know, that that happened to you, as a very young child that you were picked up a bit for doing something that you didn't know at the time was necessarily wrong. And I guess was treated like I didn't belong, like you were kicked out for being you and doing something that I didn't know was the wrong thing to do. So I wonder how those labels that being a disruptive child, that being a playful child, being a child who gets kicked out of the nursery, how do you think that that contributed to your earlier life?
Elvin Nagamootoo 07:14
You used an interesting term there, which I picked up on, which was the word labels. And I think once you have one of those labels applied to you, they tend to stick with you unless something quite dramatic changes and shifts. So I think from secondary school, I would say that all the way through that from my early childhood if you looked at any of my school reports, they would pretty much say exactly the same thing. Nice child, very disruptive, somewhat playful, could do better, is pretty much the kind of consistent things you pull out of them. And it wasn't until I was kind of older, I left high school that I discovered that I had dyslexia. And if I played all of that back, looking back, it just wasn't a thing that was picked up throughout the 80s and 90s, it was less well-known, and people just labeled this child as a bit awkward. And actually, we're probably focused less on them. But it has a quite big ripple impact when you have those labels kind of applied quite early on because you start to fulfill those prophecies, you box yourself into those places and go well, actually, no, I can only do this. A really good example is when you go into secondary school, you're graded, so you're put into two separate bands, a higher and lower band. So even by definition, even though I was good in other subjects, like Maths and Science, which were more kind of binary, I guess, didn't require as much use of the English language. I was impeded because I was at that lower set level. So you could only go so far. As a good example, I could only achieve a B as my highest grade in Secondary School for Maths and Science, which I got by the way, I did fail English, don't tell my mom.
Nadia Nagamootoo 08:44
So actually, it was just not possible, you sat that exam, and there was no more you could get other than a B.
Elvin Nagamootoo 08:50
Correct, comically I coached one of my friends at school who was in the higher set than me and achieved an A, which is probably the irony of it.
Nadia Nagamootoo 08:57
I mean, that is unbelievable, really to think I suppose that the world is expecting certain things of you. And that bar is set at a lower position than potentially your capability allows, which saddens me in a way, t it was certainly in the 80s. And I hope obviously things have moved on since then. But whilst education might not do that, actually, I still feel that we live in a world where we have these very clear labels for people and very clear expectations about what someone is capable of. And we apply it all the time to everyone you know, as parents, potentially you will apply it to our children. And as leaders, we will apply it to the people who work with us and for us. So I guess I'm really interested in the concept of intersectionality here and what I mean by that is when different diversity characteristics that one individual has, offer sort of a cumulative impact in terms of how they're treated. So, if you fall into minority categories on a number of different characteristics, it will I suppose continued to impede you. And so you were saying, for example, you're a minority ethnic in the area that you are growing up in with Dyslexia as an only child. So there are lots of different variables there. So I'm interested in how you think, all of the diversity characteristics that have intersected with your dyslexia and offered the outcome, which meant that people weren't expecting great things from you.
Elvin Nagamootoo 10:27
Yeah, I mean, gosh, there's a lot to take in there. And when you hear someone else say that casting my mind back all those years that there was probably a strong mix of different emotions that I probably didn't recognize, though, that played out over many years, but one of them would be low self-esteem. So thinking that you're limited in what you can do. And actually, you're less worthy than other people in your peer group, because that's what you've always been told. And that's where you've been kind of pigeon-holed, I guess for lack of a better term. That culminated really in choosing not to go to university, although I did visit lots of universities, and I had lots of friends there and made sure that we attended Freshers Week. So, an important part, I guess, was socializing in universities, I checked all of them out. So it was good. But yeah, it led me down a different path. And I've always had a good ability to problem solve, started work from a relatively young age. I worked with it, I don’t think you could probably do this anymore. But back in the day, it was okay. It was like 14 and working on building sites, which is probably frowned upon nowadays.
Nadia Nagamootoo 11:23
Yeah, I remember your first job.
Elvin Nagamootoo 11:25
But yeah, worked in lots of different places like retail. And really, I pretty much held that job since I was 14, I think in some way, shape, or form, not a full time obviously, some part-time while I was still at school, but really left school after college. I did a GMBG in business, which I don't think I've ever used.
Nadia Nagamootoo 11:41
I don't even remember you doing that. Is that because you felt that you needed to go to college, or you needed something additional to GCSEs? Was there pressure for you to dictate that path? Would you have much preferred to just get your head down and get into the world of work?
Elvin Nagamootoo 11:54
Yeah, it was definitely an expectation, I'd say so. So culturally, where I grew up people studied hard, and they went to college, and they went to university. So there was an expectation to do that. All of my friends did exactly the same thing. So in my world at the time, which was smaller, I guess that was the expectation of people. And typically, you would be told that people who didn't do that would fail.
Nadia Nagamootoo 12:20
Yeah, it was so binary, wasn't it? Right? Yeah, I think for me, and maybe it was similar for you, obviously, because our dads were brothers, there was something around well, my dad came over here, like from Mauritius, to England for a better life, and with more potential to fulfill ambitions, to do better, whatever that looks like to them. And that there was something about being first-generation UK born, where I kind of knew that my parents didn't have as many of the opportunities that I had. Because of them, I have had opportunities because they came to the UK and I was born in the UK. I guess part of it was that sense of duty, to live up to that expectation that I was going to have a better life. And in order to do that education, education, education, education, literally was drilled in from such a young age. That was their inner belief. It was sort of like getting an education to have more opportunities than they did. And we would have a better life. Did you feel that too?
Elvin Nagamootoo 13:27
Both of my parents worked so hard. So my mum was a nurse for 30-plus years, My dad had a number of different roles, really, but I guess for the longest period of time, I can remember he was a network technician for BT British Telecom at the time. But yeah, they worked hard, you know, they had like, very modest income. But what they did have, they gave me every opportunity to try and do better, to do more than the opportunities that they maybe had when they were younger. So there was definitely a level of expectation that you felt, I used to work under pressure because I think that's exactly what it felt like at the time. And with that, you know, some people thrive upon that and go forward, I rebelled, I did the exact opposite. And my rebellious bit was to go, I don't want to pursue academia anymore. I want to go and work, I want my own financial independence, and not choose that kind of cookie-cutter path, I guess.
Nadia Nagamootoo 14:15
I love the word there, not to choose the cookie-cutter path, because, to me, everything about you is typically based on our upbringing, just knowing the culture that we were brought up in and you know, sort of similar-ish households in the sense of culture, and you just figuring out a completely different path. So when I was 14, 15, I remember looking at you thinking, Oh, you just seem to grow up quicker than I did. I don't know if that makes sense to you. But for me, I remember looking at you thinking wow, you're working, you're earning money, and I was this like a little girl at high school, head down in the books and we were in quite different places at the time. And I think for me, typically people looked at me and thought that is Cookie Cutter path, kind of like what Nadia is doing will lead to success. And I guess this is what I love about this and talking to you is challenging that cookie-cutter approach to what success is at a young age to feel confident enough to figure out a path that's different from everyone else.
Elvin Nagamootoo 15:17
I'd love to say that I planned this all out since I was 14, I really would love to say that. But truth be known that probably wasn't that accurate. I think I took key decision points and made them and stuck to them. And I think part of my grit and determination is to not be wrong. So by choosing a slightly different path, I had to succeed in my own way just to prove myself right, I guess and not be wrong. And I think, it’s part of my qualities which not everyone sees that way, but yeah, part of the makeup of who I am.
Nadia Nagamootoo 15:47
What I hear then is that inner sense of belief in yourself, despite actually a lot of messages from a younger age, saying actually could do better, still having that belief as a teenager, to say, it's not me, I know my path. And I'm going to create a different one from the one that everyone else is doing. So I'm really interested. And now I call it a sliding doors moment. But was there a moment in your life where you just thought, do you know what I can be more, I know I can be more than what people are expecting of me, all the things that make me who I am, that is channeling me down this path. And I know I can be more than that. Was there a moment like that?
Elvin Nagamootoo 16:30
I don't think there was a particular moment. And I think I'd probably describe it as a series of moments that have happened. And I think still happens every now and again. But where you lapse, I suppose. And you remember, you go back to who you were, you go back to the things that you recall from when you were younger because they're close, they're natural, and they feel safe. And some of those things limit what you believe you can do. It's almost like you're in rehab all the time. And you're having to remind yourself that, actually, no, you don't have a dependency on these things, you can do more, I think, you know, just looking at a young age, taking a more work-orientated path, going to work in loads of different sectors. I've been a Christmas elf, which is actually a very fun job until you have to go pick up the dead Christmas trees, that's less fun. You know, I've worked in the music business. I've worked in operations, I became a gas engineer, predominately by trial and error. But I think the thing that underpinned all of it was, I'll find something that's right for me at some point, and just listening to when actually you realise something that isn't right for you.
And knowing that it's time to move on and do something different. I think that's probably one thing that stayed consistent, it hasn't been a sliding doors moment. Gosh, I don't know, I think it's probably a collection of them across the way. And they're all slightly different, but probably all slightly interconnected, which is, don't limit yourself, don't ever think that this is the only thing I can do. This is as good as it gets. Because even now, in my 40s, I'm still pushing myself to do more. I recently applied for a governor role at my daughter's school and was successful, I pushed myself to join an accelerator course for people from ethnic minorities to become a non-Executive Director, and again, have been recently successful. So I think you do have to keep going that it's okay to not be your regular shaper person that people expect. And I think society has also become more accepting that actually, you don't have to go down this one path and actually bring diversity in a different way. Because that range of thought, feeling, and experience is actually very valuable. Having a different perspective is actually quite key in anything that you do really.
Nadia Nagamootoo 18:33
Yeah. And I remember that activist approach of yours, how you learn, I remember sort of going round to your house, and you took as many things liquids in your house that you could find and just put them in a container together. And were just mixing it up into some kind of potion, like, it was a little bit like George's marvelous medicine. But you just wanted to find out what would happen if you mixed all of these things together. And to me that sort of is a nice analogy of your life you know, and how you approached everything from your work and trying to figure out well, am I good at this? What would happen if I did a bit of that, and I did a bit of that and figured out what actually was the thing that made you spark, that created magic in your heart? I'd really like to talk about you as a gas engineer, to how you then became a global head of product at Hive. And of course, now this amazing role at Shell Energy. What gave you that continuous sense of self-worth, and the self-belief to make it to a senior leadership level?
Elvin Nagamootoo 19:43
Well, that's a big question. Probably multiple answers to that one. I think the first one really, it's something that stayed with me don't be afraid to fail. Failure is a moment in time where you can take really good lessons, and good learnings from and keep moving. That doesn't define you, build you, it makes you stronger. It gives you so much more depth and understanding. And actually, it's okay. Lots of people fail at things. And that's fine. I think having children helps you learn that lesson more. From a professional perspective, I joined British Gas as an apprentice engineer. But I still had an age limit. I think I was one of the oldest apprentices or would have been like 24, at the time, gone through a training programme with other colleagues, but realized quite quickly that I’m actually not bad at this, I’m quite good with recollections of problem-solving. And I kind of picked things up quite quickly, was able to progress to help and support other technicians fixing domestic boilers within customers’ homes, and opportunities opened. And I think one of the good things from a dyslexic perspective, although I struggle, and still do, by the way, with the written format, I speak twice, I'm fine, I pick up things quite quickly, I can replicate things, and I can evolve and build them.
I just struggle with taking information in and have to use various techniques to make that easier for me, to ingest information that way. And that's why I'm actually working in the field, which is quite operational, and actually worked quite well for me. And then the field is a really interesting place, right? You are meeting customers in their homes, they're very comfortable, but you're probably a little bit awkward. But you learn a lot, you learn how to talk to people, you learn how to listen, and how to understand their problems. And while I wasn't performing heart surgery or anything, you are dealing with people who are vulnerable. So I don't have heating, I don't have hot water. So all of these things, I think kind of helped shape and create a better understanding of people, but also installers as well as engineers. They're a unique bunch of people, right? And although they see customers on a regular basis, they're quite isolated. So actually trying to connect with them as I started moving towards managing field teams, I actually found it really hard to do that, because it's quite a solitary role, and you become quite guarded, and you possibly don't share as much.
So trying to break that down trying to build teams is something that I had success with and failures with. But that kind of led me to an opportunity where British Gas at the time, was investing in some new technology, we got some funding from central board, and we broke out and started up a small startup in London that eventually became Hive, the connected home thermostat business. And you know, I've worked in different areas from helping set up the operational side of the business and the customer services, to business readiness, and then got a great opportunity to work in the product team. And I remember my CPO at a time going, you've got some good credentials there, you obviously really understand our customer base, but are you gonna be able to apply that to a new discipline? And it was quite tough, you know, I'd got to kind of middle-level management role. And then you kind of go in as the new person again and then start all over again. And actually, that for me is something that I thrive off, going in and trying to work out things, trying to adapt and change. And I think if you kind of keep that with you, that hunger, that thirst to always learn, always kind of push yourself, you don't fall back into that security blanket of oh, maybe I'll just box myself again because I'm comfortable with that. I remember all those things that those people told me, that I can only go this far.
Nadia Nagamootoo 22:54
As you have that step change from any level to the next level up. But particularly when you're then moving into the senior levels of an organization. What do you need to be wrapped around you in order to make sure you don't waver on that sense of self-belief? And is there a particular person who you've had as a sponsor or mentor who all come from you?
Elvin Nagamootoo 23:14
It's a mix, right? It's having a really good close, strong family network, it is invaluable. No one knows me better than my family. Sometimes I think they know me better than I know myself. Good, close, strong friends network, I’m still really good friends with my high school friends, still very close with them. But also from a professional perspective, I think I've been very fortunate in the mentors, some casual, some formal, that helped me grow along the way, and have given me an indication of you know, I definitely wasn't perfect, right? And while I’m no diamond, there were some shiny bits about me that they helped polish round off, to be the best me that I can be really, so definitely I had lots of help along the way. I think the key thing there is just being comfortable in your own skin. It's okay to be different. It's fine. Not everyone is the same. I have that from multiple different lenses. But again, at the time when I was kind of moving to more senior positions. And I think the biggest transition moving from a field-based role to an office-based role where most people are not like you, you are the one slightly awkward voice in the room, you're the person going, I don't really understand why we're doing that.
It doesn't make any sense to me. It's probably because I have quite a customer focus centric mindset where actually, from a commercial perspective, or from a business perspective, that is absolutely the right decision to make for the business. But if you add a customer lens over the top of it, not so much. So I would be that kind of annoying voice in the room to an extent but I think it's tough, but there are some people out there who perhaps don't feel that you've earned your right and your seat at the table and that's something that I've learned it's not my problem. That's their problem that they have to deal with. I can only show and demonstrate what I can do. I have nothing to prove to them. I've done all of that hard work now. And I think that that mindset is changing. I don't see it or recognize it as often as I once did. But that was a big learning curve for me. And when I look back at it, and I don't really think about it very often, it's actually quite a painful time. I was very sad during that period of time. I question whether it was the right thing to leave the field, I was very comfortable with my role there. But actually, making that transition was difficult because I guess people were prejudiced against me in a number of different ways, whether it's from intellectual superiority, or because of my ethnic background.
Nadia Nagamootoo 25:24
And so we move then into the conversation around diversity and inclusion, about being the only or being othered, which means like, you're not like us, you're in the other group, you're like them. So that seems to be a recurring theme. As you've pushed yourself, as you've got into a different area, as you've decided to make different decisions for your career. Each time, you've ended up potentially being the only ethnic minority, the only field engineer that's now in the office, the only person who thinks differently from everyone else, and is having that customer-centric approach. Do you have any tips for people or advice for those people who often find themselves being the only one?
Elvin Nagamootoo 26:06
Yeah, I would say that you may be the only one in that situation, but you will definitely not be the only one in a more global perspective. You have to keep believing that you are the right person, you've earned your place where you are, and you should know your own worth and your own value. Don't let others dictate what that might be for you, you know yourself, and you know what you can do. The difficult thing, I think is having a really strong network around you of people that you can speak openly, honestly with, ideally, people who are privy to seeing the situation you're in, that may make you feel that way because they're able to provide not just words of encouragement, but actually contextual words of encouragement because they can actually see the exact situation you're in. And it's always good to have someone else that you can share those problems with. I wouldn't carry them alone, I did that for a long time, and actually, it can make you quite sad. And facing into those things. And genuinely just knowing that you're worth something and don't belittle that, don't throw that away, soak it all up, bring it in, and just be strong, even if it is really difficult actually talking about this.
Nadia Nagamootoo 27:08
I appreciate your honesty, actually, in sharing that. That's clearly a painful memory at times of just repeatedly being in moments where you're just not seen or visible, or able to share the value that you can offer, or not being seen as credible in what you're offering. And what I hear in you is that sense of resilience that you've needed throughout your career, in order to get you to where you are, and obviously wrapped around lots of support and key people in your life clearly who have made a big, big difference in you maintaining that level of resilience. And if you've wobbled that you've got that structure, foundation, as I call it, you know, underneath you to support you. I suppose I'm interested in how that's really shaped you as a leader now. So really thinking about you and your leadership, of people who are very different, of a diverse team, of a global team, of working in a company like Shell energy, what do you bring to your leadership that you've gathered over that period of your life?
Elvin Nagamootoo 28:14
I'd say that there were probably two or three key things that I think are important and worth sharing. One is massively indexed on understanding and accepting people. We're all individuals but also treat everyone fairly. My team is probably sick of me telling them this but they'll recognize the language I use because it is all around being balanced and fair, and inclusive. Not everyone's an extrovert, right? Not everyone feels comfortable talking, but you're pulling in people making sure that maybe the quieter voices are heard, and they have that time. There are always big characters that will soak up a lot of the room. And my role really is kind of making sure that those quieter voices are heard because you tend to find this. There's a lot in there, and they bring different perspectives. I think that's probably one of the key things that I instill from a leadership perspective. And I suppose the other one's really kind of more around work-life balance. I joined Shell energy in the first UK lockdown, and it was tough. I'd left Center care I'd been there for nearly 15 years. So I consider it family, I joined when I was a boy, married with two children, and I was joining a new family and a pretty well-established team as well. So it was tough. I think I did something like 18 one-to-ones on Zoom, which is tough. So it's hard to connect with people over video as well. So spending a lot of time with people to make sure that they understood who I am as well. There's one thing I've learned, I guess that I get the most out of people when they get the most out of me, when they understand who I am, and how I work. And also me understanding how they are really trying to connect with people and understand who they are, I think is really important from a leadership perspective. Honestly, trust any of my team, they'll know that I'm very transparent in how I speak, and in what I'm thinking. And I expect the same of them as well. We're a high-performing team, and I expect great things but equally, that work-life balance is so important. I think the actual pandemic has really brought that to light. Lots of us have gone through very difficult times over the last couple of years. And actually having that flexibility in the workplace has been key. I think that's something I've recognized in multiple companies, not just in my organization, but watching businesses change and adapt to recognize points of difference where people have different needs. And that actually, you can balance those two things. It doesn't have to be as rigid and as formal as it maybe once was.
Nadia Nagamootoo 30:30
I've seen that in many organizations and also witnessed other organizations that haven't learned that lesson as well and suffer as a result. I'm totally in agreement with you about that, inclusive leadership comes with really understanding the individual, their individual needs, and what's important to them, not just inside of work, but outside of work, too. And really being able to recognize that fairness isn't treating everyone the same. We'd spoken about the cookie cutter, and really recognizing that fairness isn't a cookie-cutter approach to leadership. And I think that is the hard stuff when you really get into leadership, where you're asking leaders to be versatile and adapt, according to who's in front of them. And there's a lot of fear around that. Because I can't give you a clear manual and tell you that this is the way you lead.
Elvin Nagamootoo 31:18
No, I wish someone could do that. Anyone out there, you can please let me know, I completely recognize that. And it's definitely something that you have to keep working at. It's not something that you can go on a training course once and it's done. It's continual. But again, only through strong regular feedback, that transparency, you need to be able to have that. But it's a hard thing, right? You are able to flex your style in many different ways as a leader. But that one, if you consider yourself a people leader in my mind, then that's definitely something you need to have in your toolkit.
Nadia Nagamootoo 31:45
Yeah, one final question because we shouldn't end the conversation without talking about our daughters, and the next generation. For me, one of my biggest drivers, is our two girls, and I know you and I know how much your two daughters are the same for you in your life and in your career and what you strive for. I guess I'm really interested in a final question around, what do you hope, as you work towards a better organization to improve your leadership to do everything that you do in your work and in your role as a leader, what do you hope it will lead to for our daughter's generation? What should the future of work look like when it comes to inclusion?
Elvin Nagamootoo 32:26
I am so passionate about my daughters and making sure that they feel and that they do not just feel that they know that they are equally as good as any other man. It's been a couple of incidents where Reese my eldest, I watch Formula One, so she watched Formula One. And I said, would you like to be a Formula One driver one day? And she was like, Well, no, I can't daddy, I was like, why not? Expecting let's say that she can't drive. She was like, I'm not a boy. And I was like, I can't believe she said that you know, she was four or five at the time. And it really upset me. And I felt a bit like have I not done the right thing by her. And actually, I shared this with my boss who knew someone who worked for that team in the marketing department, they sent a lovely letter to my daughter, advising them of the W series. So we watched that together, and she understood that actually, women can do that just as much. And equally, the same thing happened with football. So now she's part of a football group for girls, specifically, we follow the Arsenal Football team, the women's team. I can't rest until she knows that she is just as capable. There are so many things that condition women, I've never recognized them before, because I was a man like almost entitled, I guess in many respects that you just don't know. Until you've got someone who relies upon you, who's looking at you for guidance, and they're treated differently. Once that shroud was unveiled, I've been much more active, I guess, in making sure that that imbalance is as little as possible and really driving forward to making that just a non-topic, just something we would never dream of talking about.
Elvin Nagamootoo 33:56
Yeah. And I know how that would spill over into everything that you embody at work and in your leadership for anyone who feels that something's not for them. For me, it is so inspiring when I look at you as a leader and for everything that you stand for. So thank you so much, Elvin, for your time, for sharing about your life and the roller coaster, the ups the downs, the things that you've learned, and also for some amazing, inspiring pieces of advice and words of wisdom for those people who do feel like they don't fit the cookie cutter. Thank you.
Elvin Nagamootoo 34:32
Thank you for having me. Really appreciate it. I love talking to you. And hopefully, your listeners have found this useful.
Nadia Nagamootoo 34:38
So that's the end of this special episode of My Why Care Podcast. This was a really emotional conversation that brought to life the reality of how intersectional diversity characteristics can create barriers that are tough to overcome but shines a light on how powerful it can be when someone has the resilience and desire to persist. Do let Elvin and I know what you thought of today's show. You can find me on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram with the handle @NadiaNagamootoo. As always, I really appreciate your support of this podcast by leaving a review on whatever platform you're listening to and spreading the word by sharing it with friends and family. Your reviews and ratings really do make a difference. Huge thanks to Mara Kenji for editing this podcast and to Jon Rice was supporting with the show notes and getting it out there on social media.